{"error":false,"id":["150500"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150500,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150500","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T11:30:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T11:41:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d549905663ff73d823a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6b8d117be339ca86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:30:53 - 11:41:10","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時31分）請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，前面很多委員都談到費率的問題，談到期程的問題。我一直認為在碳費機制的制訂裡面，接下來一個最關鍵的問題，我覺得也是最爭議的一個問題，最不好處理的問題，還是優惠費率。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在氣候法第二十九條中的優惠費率，部長，我想先請問你，這個有關優惠費率的條文是氣候法裡面的條文，它是由環境部所管轄，所以在這個條文的使用上面，部長你覺得條文的目的是要加速轉型，還是要放寬標準？"],["薛部長富盛：兩個都……絕對不是放寬標準。"],["洪委員申翰：你剛剛差一點說溜嘴了。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，不是。我們是……"],["洪委員申翰：是哪一個？"],["薛部長富盛：享用優惠費率，一定要提自主減碳計畫。"],["洪委員申翰：但是優惠費率的目的是要讓產業加速轉型，還是幫產業放寬標準？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，因為這裡面有牽涉到一個過渡時期，所以我們希望能夠提自主減量，才可以去搭配優惠費率這一塊。"],["洪委員申翰：但是提自主減量是要拿來加速轉型、加速減碳？還是要幫企業加寬標準，讓它降低成本？"],["薛部長富盛：絕對是希望它來加速它減碳的速度。"],["洪委員申翰：好。優惠費率的目的是拿來加速轉型跟加速減碳，這是最重要的標準，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：不是拿來降低成本，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：絕對不是。"],["洪委員申翰：這部分態度要很清楚。"],["薛部長富盛：很清楚，crystal clear。"],["洪委員申翰：不能夠猶疑，部長，你剛剛猶豫了一下，我替你擔心了一下。你應該猶豫了一下，很可能會有很多人見縫插針，挑戰你。"],["薛部長富盛：不會，crystal clear。"],["洪委員申翰：好。是為了加速轉型？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，之前有一篇報導寫說，環境部接下來會採SBTi的自主減量，折扣多少是另外一回事，但是會採SBTi的自主減量來決定優惠費率的程度，目前環境部還是會這樣做嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，跟洪委員報告，洪委員畢竟是這方面的專家。我們在優惠這一塊又分兩個，假如要follow SBTi的這個部分，條件比較嚴格，你也知道，所以一般企業大概不會走這一條路線。當然我們要顧慮現實面，讓企業有辦法根據本身的條件跟情況去提自主減量，再享受優惠費用，所以有兩個部分。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，前幾天在碳費審議委員會裡面大家提到一個共識，是要以科學為本。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：剛剛前面有幾位委員可能不一定很知道，以科學為本這幾個字，在氣候變遷，包括碳定價制度裡面，是非常非常的關鍵。能夠定下以科學為本這個基礎，是我們對接國際非常重要的事情，所以剛剛在講的SBTi的事情，其實就是以科學為本，現在國際上面認可最高共識的標準，就是SBTi這個以科學為本的路徑。但是現在我要問部長的事情是，現在民間確實擔心優惠費率的條文會不會變成是幫企業降低成本？或放寬標準、大開門戶的做法？會不會變成這樣？"],["薛部長富盛：我們的設計絕對不是這樣子，我們的設計就是剛剛洪委員講的。"],["洪委員申翰：可是你要達成什麼樣的自主減量？尤其是你的自主減量裡面要有什麼參考的依據？要不要參考以科學為本的那個路徑？也許你做不到完完整整的SBTi，但是也許你做到部分，至少是在SBTi以科學為本的路徑上面的話，我覺得這個可以討論，但不是隨隨便便說，因為中鋼成本太高，所以現在就要幫它降低一點碳費，應該不是這樣吧？所以我覺得以科學為本的路徑是關鍵，部長同意嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：同意，我們是以2030年的一個標準，我們路徑圖裡面有提到。"],["洪委員申翰：所以是2030年的目標，循SBTi的路徑，然後看做到的程度來決定優惠費率及可能優惠的程度，是這樣的概念嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我剛剛講的就是分兩個：一個就是完全follow SBTi，然後以2030年的目標為準來走這一塊，優惠費率會更高。另外一個，假如沒有辦法follow SBTi的減量方法，就根據自己的量能去提自主減量計畫，那我們……"],["洪委員申翰：重點是自主減量計畫是要能夠加速轉型的，大家監督都各有重點，環境部的重點就是它提出來的自主減量計畫是要能夠符合加速轉型的，而不是來混的，而不是來放寬標準的，現在民間在看的是這個。"],["薛部長富盛：在座兩位委員是費率審議委員會裡面的委員，他們有聽進去。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，現在確實有一些廠商提出，除了在碳費的制訂以外，他們也希望去考慮供應鏈在全球競爭上公平性、競爭性的問題，部長有聽過產業這樣子講嗎？有聽過嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有，台泥的活動我都有參加。"],["洪委員申翰：有聽過？部長，我不知道你清不清楚，歐盟的ETS，也就是碳交易體系，一開始也是在考慮這個事情之後給了免費配額。但後來也知道持續給免費配額不是辦法，所以用了CBAM，用碳邊境調整機制來慢慢把免費配額逐漸取消。簡單來說，歐盟確實也考慮產業的全球競爭公平性的問題，他們不是沒考慮，他們有考慮，可是他們很明確地拿出了方法，那個方法叫做碳邊境調整機制。我們現在的問題是，如果參考到臺灣，我覺得如果考慮到臺灣全球競爭的公平性，這個考慮我認為是合理的，但我們拿出來的對應機制是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：跟洪委員報告，事實上我已經在內部跟我們同仁主管談到，我們應該開始來考慮推臺版的CBAM，我也請行政院召集其他部會……"],["洪委員申翰：我們現在看到有一些廠商提出，如水泥業等等，他們說他們也願意做到比較好，可是他們一樣要面對不同地區競爭公平性的問題。部長，那我現在就要問你了，關於臺版的CBAM，其實我們在氣候法理面有留了一個授權在第三十一條，部長，你對第三十一條的認識怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：還是要再研究。"],["洪委員申翰：第三十一條有辦法成為我們臺版的CBAM嗎？我們的氣候法第三十一條有可能成為臺版的CBAM嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：應該也可以當作一個基礎。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我現在看到第三十一條的內文，坦白說，跟現在我們一般認識的CBAM的意涵很不一樣。你可以看到，其實簡單來說，就是要進口的產品要來買credit，對不對？買碳權，買額度，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["洪委員申翰：但是大家都知道，請問歐盟的CBAM認的是強制性的，還是自願性的？部長。"],["薛部長富盛：自願性的？"],["洪委員申翰：歐盟的CBAM，認的是強制性的，還是自願性的？"],["薛部長富盛：強制性的。"],["洪委員申翰：他們只認強制性的，可是我們的氣候法第三十一條反而是要人家去做自願性額度的採購，這個有符合大家對CBAM的理解嗎？恐怕不是吧？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：所以現在我們的問題是，就像部長說的，我們願意來啟動臺版CBAM的討論跟規劃，但現在氣候法第三十一條的設計看起來有一些問題，那部長，你覺得該怎麼辦？"],["薛部長富盛：啟動修法。"],["洪委員申翰：你覺得可以啟動修法？"],["薛部長富盛：要大院支持。"],["洪委員申翰：我現在是在幫部長解決問題。企業提出要求，要政府幫他們考慮全球競爭力，我覺得這件事情可以考慮。可是如果我們拿不出別的工具的話，今天企業就會一直要求降低碳費，這時候就會產生環境部訂定碳費費率時的矛盾與衝突。我們可能很難把所有的期待和需求，全部都押在碳費這個工具裡面一次完成，所以我們希望有複合式的工具能夠處理大家的不同需求，這裡面可能就包括臺版的碳邊境調整機制。當然，這個碳邊境調整機制不一定是稅或是關稅的形式。","但是看起來，我們現在的工具確有不足，或者是設計的用意達不到我們原本期望的狀況。所以部長，我們現在應該把這些全盤想一遍，包括企業認為應該考慮的事，我們也要考慮；可是我們也要守住訂定碳定價該有的原則，也就是為了加速轉型，而不是放鬆、放寬標準，但我們還需要其他的工具。部長，這個部分可不可以在兩個月內給我們研議的結果？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝洪委員的提議。"],["洪委員申翰：因為他們已經在呼籲臺版的碳邊境調整，所以現在產業有這樣的呼聲。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，我們來努力。"],["洪委員申翰：我們可以考慮、設計，甚至該修定的機制也要修定，是不是這樣？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以。"],["洪委員申翰：兩個月內給我們一份可行性報告，包括相關方案，可不可以？"],["薛部長富盛：好的，謝謝洪委員。"],["洪委員申翰：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員。接下來請李委員彥秀發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.164718750000002,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":21.765968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.71784375,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.21096875,"end":41.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.150968750000004,"end":53.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.49096875,"end":56.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.09784375,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.679718750000006,"end":62.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.86534375,"end":62.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.907218750000006,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.76346875,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.60659375,"end":77.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.62346875,"end":70.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.80784375,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.12721875000001,"end":87.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.84846875000001,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.53596875000001,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.79284375,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.82659375,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.02909375,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.10909375,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.30284375000001,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":100.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.15034375,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.31909375000001,"end":100.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.99409375,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.04471875,"end":107.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.07846875000001,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.87909375000001,"end":111.20346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.94659375,"end":108.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.00971875,"end":109.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.46096875,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.490343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洪委員好部長這個今天當然前面很多委員當然都談到費率的問題談到期程的問題那當然我一直認為現在在我們碳費機制的制定裡面接下來一個最關鍵的問題我覺得也是最爭議的一個問題最不好處理的問題還是是優惠費率是"},{"start":36.26,"end":56.401,"text":"這個我們在氣候法裡面29條的這個優惠費率不然我想先請問你這個優惠費率這個條文是氣候法裡面的條文那它是由環境部所管轄所以在這個條文的使用上面不然你覺得條文使用的目的是要來加速轉型還是來放寬標準"},{"start":58.217,"end":60.338,"text":"但是優惠費率的目的是要拿來讓企業讓產業加速轉型還是幫產業放寬標準"},{"start":77.824,"end":82.027,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":99.261,"end":100.082,"text":"克里斯托克利爾"},{"start":128.433,"end":147.863,"text":"是為了加速轉型那部長下面齁之前有一篇報導寫到說環境部接下來說會採SPTI的自主減量那折扣多少那是另外一回事但是會採SPTI的自主減量來針對可能優惠費率的程度目前環境部還是會這樣做嗎"},{"start":148.928,"end":163.545,"text":"是 給洪文報告 洪文畢竟是這方面的專家我們在優惠的這一塊事實上又分兩個他假如要follow SBTI的這個部分他的嚴格條件你也知道比較嚴格"},{"start":164.326,"end":178.155,"text":"所以一般的企業大概不會走這一條路線所以我們才會說當然我們要顧慮現實面讓企業有辦法根據他本身的一個條件跟情況去提自主減量再想做這個優惠會議"},{"start":180.737,"end":199.999,"text":"前幾天的碳費審議委員會裡面大家提到一個共識是要以科學為本剛剛前面有幾位委員可能不一定有些不一定很知道以科學為本這幾個字在氣候變遷包括是碳定價制度裡面非常非常的關鍵能夠定下以科學為本的這個基礎"},{"start":202.048,"end":229.649,"text":"是我們對接國際非常重要的事情所以剛剛在講的SBTI的事情其實就是以科學為本現在國際上面認可最高共識的標準就是SBTI的這個以科學為本的路徑但是現在我要問部長的事情是我們今天現在民間確實有一個擔心優惠費率的條文會不會被拿來變成是幫企業降低成本或者是放寬標準大開"},{"start":233.343,"end":260.3,"text":"門戶大開大動的做法會不會變成是這樣我們的設計絕對不是這樣子我們的設計剛剛洪委員講嘛可是你要達成什麼樣的自主減量是尤其是你的自主減量裡面要有一個什麼參考的依據要不要參考以科學為本的那個路徑也許你做不到完完整整的SBTI是但是也許你做到部分但是你至少是在SBTI以科學為本的路徑上面的話我覺得這可以討論"},{"start":261.741,"end":289.384,"text":"但不是隨隨便便說因為中鋼成本太高了所以我現在就要幫他降低一點碳費應該不是這樣吧不是所以我覺得以科學為本的路徑是關鍵部長同意齁同意然後我們是以2030年的一個標準是已經我們路徑圖裡面就知道2030年的目標然後服務SBTI的路徑是然後來看他做到的程度來給優惠費率可能優惠的程度是這樣的概念嗎"},{"start":290.204,"end":295.329,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":307.839,"end":314.821,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":338.252,"end":365.807,"text":"現在確實一些廠商他有提出說除了我們在碳費的制定以外他也希望去考慮說那我這個供應鏈在全球競爭公平性競爭性的這個問題部長有聽過產業這樣子講有聽過嗎有有有這個台女我都參加他們的活動有聽過嗎部長我不知道你清不清楚歐盟在一開始的時候他們的ETS也就是手電管的碳交易之後他們也是考慮這個事情給了免費配額"},{"start":367.291,"end":392.438,"text":"但後來也知道持續給免費配額不是辦法所以用了CBAN用了碳邊境調整機制來慢慢的把這個免費配額給逐漸的取消掉簡單來說歐盟確實他們也考慮產業的全球競爭公平性的問題他們不是沒考慮他們有考慮可是他們很明確的拿出了方法那個方法叫做碳邊境調整機制"},{"start":394.537,"end":404.757,"text":"我們現在的問題是如果參考到臺灣我覺得臺灣全球競爭工具這個考慮我認為是合理的但我們拿出來對應的機制是什麼部長"},{"start":406.311,"end":427.899,"text":"有 給洪委員報告 事實上我已經在內部有跟他們跟我們同仁主管談到我們應該要開始來考慮推台版的西本我也請行政院可以召集我們現在看到有一些廠商廠商他有提出水泥業等等等他說我也願意做到比較好可是我一樣面對不同地區競爭的公平性的問題是"},{"start":429.139,"end":436.945,"text":"那部長我現在就要問你了現在台版的CBAN其實我們在氣候法裡面有留了一個授權在31條部長你對31條的認識怎麼樣還需要再研究31條有辦法成為我們台版的CBAN嗎你們覺得可以嗎31條我們在氣候法的31條有可能成為台版的CBAN嗎"},{"start":455.94,"end":470.132,"text":"應該也可以當作一個基礎由那個來部長我現在看到這31條的內文坦白說跟現在我們一般認識CBAN的意涵很不一樣你可以看到我們其實簡單來說就是要進口的產品要來買對"},{"start":472.247,"end":494.053,"text":"Q.買碳權買額度對不對但是大家都知道請問歐盟的CBAM他們認的是強制性的還是自願性的部長自願性的吧歐盟的CBAM他們認強制性的還是自願性的強制性的他們只認強制性的可是我們31條反而是要人家去做自願性額度的採購OK"},{"start":495.709,"end":512.993,"text":"這個有符合大家對CBAN的理解嗎?恐怕是不太是吧所以現在我們的問題是假如部長就像部長說我們願意來啟動台版CBAN的討論跟規劃但我們現在在法規裡面的31條看起來他這個法條的設計看起來有些問題那部長覺得該怎麼辦?那啟動修法你覺得可以啟動修法?"},{"start":526.382,"end":545.415,"text":"我現在是在幫部長解決問題喔企業提出一個要求說要幫我考慮全球競爭我覺得這個事情可以考慮可是如果我們拿不出別的工具的話今天企業就會一直說那你給我降低碳費這時候就會產生環境部在訂定碳費費率的時候的矛盾跟衝突"},{"start":546.55,"end":561.563,"text":"我自己覺得我們可能很難把所有的期待跟所有的需求全部都壓在碳費這個工具裡面一次完成所以我們需要複合式的工具來去處理大家不同的需求這裡面就可能包括台版的"},{"start":562.003,"end":565.588,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45"},{"start":580.58,"end":598.236,"text":"企業該考慮的事情我認為可以考慮可是我們要守住我們訂定原本碳定價該有的原則也就是是拿來加速轉型不是來放鬆不是來放寬標準的但我們需要其他的工具部長這個部分可不可以兩個月內給我們一個研議台版的碳面積調整現在產業有這樣呼聲啊"},{"start":602.299,"end":606.442,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}