{"error":false,"id":["150504"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150504,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150504","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T11:42:11+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T11:54:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5abc347bf71968bceedc5a8dea5ca6478f8ba9b0039caa7a607ff25990a71b8fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:42:11 - 11:54:26","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司就電價大漲及央行升息對物價波動的影響進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":919,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時42分）主席，我請央行楊總裁還有主計長。"],["主席：楊總裁還有朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：總裁、主計長，這一次台電調整了電價，我先說台電在去年、前年每一度電虧了1.2元、0.9元，這樣連著兩年下來，虧了3,896億，所以這一次台電要漲價，說實在話，正當性十足，但是平衡性不足。它有它的正當性，賠那麼多，總不能放著讓台電倒吧？當然正當性十足。但是平衡性不足的就是他們對於升斗小民的電費一樣是調漲了，這跟社會的期待不太一樣，社會期待電該漲，但是是不是應該找工業大戶？他們負擔得起嘛！那這個平衡性不足導致民生物資、物價都受到影響，衝擊了絕大多數升斗小民的生活，所以我認為有正當性，但是平衡性不夠。","當然這就必須要兩位來解決一些問題，那央行很不錯的就是總算決定升息了，但是楊總裁，你光是看美國，美國光去年一年就連著調了5次，連續升息5碼耶！我們從去年到現在才升了微微的半碼，當然我知道升息會造成一些後果，可是它造成一些不好的影響性，我們可以藉由政府的補貼，比方說青年貸款，比方說受薪階級他們的貸款受到利息影響，對低收入者的影響，我們可以藉由補貼來解決，而升息確實是抑制通膨的最好方法之一嘛！這是不可否認的，所以說實在話，這一次的半碼在我看來，就像台電這一次漲電一樣，台電這一次漲了電價，好像有漲了，可是問題也沒全解決啊！這就像箭射到身體裡面，他們也是用鋸箭法，把體外的鋸掉就好，可是根本的電價後續還會受到一些影響，以及他們長年的虧損，其實也還是沒解決啦！同樣，你升息升了半碼，結果對於物價通膨的抑制也是像鋸箭法一樣，只是台電這一次鋸得比較多，你們鋸得更少一點，所以就我的看法，我先問問你，總裁，你認為這一次升半碼，有沒有辦法有效地抑制通貨膨脹？在你的看法。"],["楊總裁金龍：是些微的抑制。"],["王委員世堅：些微的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就我們所做出來的結果是些微的抑制，但是……"],["王委員世堅：那麼6月份的話，如果是些微，你看哦！通貨膨脹光是2月份就達到3.08%耶！4月份電價實質漲了以後那更高，所以你認為6月份你會不會繼續升息？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，今年2月份比較高，因為跟去年的過年是在不同的月份，基期不太一樣。"],["王委員世堅：是啦！那年年都在過年，為什麼今年就達到通膨？通膨的標準是3%耶！我們今年過了3.08%，不是嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為我們一般的物價是跟上一年統一地在比較，上一年比較低。"],["王委員世堅：好，你說是過年，我們接受是過年，那現在來了，4月份怎麼辦？對，既然主計長你講了，我就說你們估計今年的CPI，主計處估2.03%，央行估2.16%，我認為都過於樂觀啊！就像我剛剛講的，2月份就3.08%了，4月份最重大的這一波電價上漲以後，CPI當然會遠高於3.08%，也就是把你們兩位先前估計今年的CPI，根本就嚴重打臉了，不是嗎？總裁，你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想剛剛主計長已經講了，這個3.08%是因為去年的春節是落在1月份，也就是說它的基期低，所以如果說1、2月兩個平均的話……"],["王委員世堅：你說因為基期低？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，如果說1、2月來平均的時候，1、2月兩個平均起來是2.43%。"],["王委員世堅：所以你的意思是說，你們今年估得也不算錯誤，不算離譜？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，因為年初一開始估測的時候，不是一定很準確的啦！因為隨著資訊來源慢慢地增加，我們在6月份的時候會再估測，有一些機構的估測都是每個月在修正的，所以不要太過於說3月份的估測準不準確，用這樣來衡量好像不是很合理。"],["王委員世堅：那這樣隨便說說，說一個數字也可以喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！沒有！當你的估測……"],["王委員世堅：你對金融的專業我尊重，我為什麼提出你跟主計處對CPI的評估過於樂觀的原因……"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，我們……"],["王委員世堅：我就是希望你在正確的估計之下，才能有正確的對策嘛！就像我現在繼續要跟你講的……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯，我們也是盡我們……"],["王委員世堅：就像你們對CPI的估測，我現在就講房租好了，房租在CPI子項目的排序裡面是排最高，它占的比率最高，結果房租啊！主計長，你們在房租評比的取樣裡面，第一個，你這個取樣很少在變化，變化的數量不大；第二個，你取樣才取1,350個，有一位臺大經濟研究所的碩士，我相信你知道叫李祖福。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那一篇我們也……"],["王委員世堅：那一篇你看了嘛！他的估算裡面，他是從591租屋網裡面取了107萬筆交易的資料，107萬筆，你們長年來就這1,350筆。"],["朱主計長澤民：不，跟委員報告一下，我們是用……"],["王委員世堅：所以他評估出來的是3.56到3.58。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，委員，那個1,350筆是作為租屋的，因為我們另外有一個，他自有房屋，我們自有房屋占百分之八十幾，我們有一個試算的，所以在全部，那個1,350或者是您講的那個臺大碩士的樣本，跟我們都不一樣，我們是全國的，包括自有住宅都在裡面，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：對啦！所以我的意思就是說，我就以數量來比嘛！你是覺得1,350筆準，還是107萬筆準？"],["朱主計長澤民：我剛才講到，我們事實上是屬於八百多萬筆，都在我們的……"],["王委員世堅：八百多萬筆嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，八百多萬筆。"],["王委員世堅：你怎樣，我看看，你估算在哪裡？你八百多萬筆。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們那個八百多萬筆是估計自有房子的也在裡面，我們有一個租金等價法在裡面，事實上我們不是……那個1,350只是租房子的那個裡面，因為我們百分之八十五、八十六以上都是自有房屋。"],["王委員世堅：我跟你講這14年來我們房價漲幅是高達142%，這是房價的漲幅，房租的CPI只有12%，這個很顯著的一個落差，所以我是認為這樣，主計長，像內政部的資料，它的樣品數都還比你多，至少它根據實價登錄也有30萬戶，結果你們還認為內政部的不準，你們的比較準。"],["朱主計長澤民：不，我必須說明一下……"],["王委員世堅：你少的來批評多的不準。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我剛才講內政部，他只是房租去登錄，我們的是包括自有住宅都在裡面。"],["王委員世堅：好啊！你所謂的包括自有住宅，你估算在哪邊？你給我資料。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，可以，我們會有一個資料跟委員說明。"],["王委員世堅：你不能給我們立委看的資料是一部分，你說那些資料不對，還有其他的資料，你根據的是其他資料，這不是很奇怪嗎？好不好？","我簡單講，主席，我簡單跟他們做個結論。我是說我認為，第一點，中央銀行，我認為你們這個評估如果是建立在失真的CPI上面，這個評估跟未來我們要對應的政策會是不對的嘛！所以CPI的評估必須很準確，也就是說你們必須現在慎重去考慮，4月電價漲了以後，CPI的影響，是不是6月要繼續升息，要先有一個對策才對。還有，我希望主計長，你們能夠增加私有住宅租金樣本，這個部分你說有，是不是你們提供給我看？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們會提報告給委員。"],["王委員世堅：好，你提供給我好不好？還有，最後一點，我希望你們研議是不是將房價也列入CPI評估的子項目，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：有關於房價，那個的話，我們必須講，國際間沒有把房價跟房租是放在一起考量，因為房價是資本財，那個是一個消費財，不太一樣。"],["王委員世堅：但是房價已經嚴重影響到嘛！已經嚴重影響到民眾的生活。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們也把房價跟房租的區別在哪邊跟委員說明一下，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員世堅代）：王世堅委員質詢結束。現在請羅明才委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","郭國文","賴惠員","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","王世堅","鄭天財Sra 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像不是很合理"},{"start":416.874,"end":436.38,"text":"那這樣隨便說說說一個數字也沒有沒有沒有你對金融的專業這個我尊重我為什麼提出說你對CPI你跟主計處你們這個評估過於樂觀我就是希望說你在正確的估計之下才能"},{"start":437.02,"end":456.846,"text":"有正確的對策嗎?就像你CPI啦你們的估測我現在就講房租好了房租當然在CPI指項目的排序裡面他排最高他佔的那個比例最高結果房租啊"},{"start":457.526,"end":482.78,"text":"那個主計長你們在房租評比你的取樣裡面第一個你這個取樣很少在變化變化的數量不大第二個你取樣才取1350個有一個台大的經濟研究所的碩士我相信你知道叫李祖福的那篇我們也帶那篇你看了嘛他"},{"start":483.9,"end":492.243,"text":"他的估算裡面他是從591租屋網裡面他取了107萬筆交易的資料107萬筆你們長年來就這1350筆沒有沒有沒有跟那個委員報告一下所以他評估出來的是3.56到3.58嗎那個委員大概是那個是我特別講的1350筆"},{"start":512.631,"end":512.671,"text":"主席"},{"start":533.576,"end":551.151,"text":"對啦 所以我的意思就是說人家我就以數量來比嘛你是覺得1350比準還是107萬比準啦我剛才講到我們事實上是屬於800多萬比都在我們的那個800多萬比嗎對"},{"start":551.872,"end":552.492,"text":"這14年來我們房價漲幅是"},{"start":581.721,"end":603.683,"text":"高達142%這是房價的漲幅那房租的CPI只有12%這個很顯著的一個落差所以我是認為這樣你像內政部那個主計長內政部的資料他量品數都還比你多他至少他根據實價登錄的他也有30萬戶結果"},{"start":606.005,"end":624.136,"text":"結果你們還認為說這個內政部的不準那你們的比較準我必須說明一下你少的來批評說多的不準沒有我們的我剛才講說內政部他只是房租到去登錄而我們的是包括自有住宅都在裡面"},{"start":625.669,"end":642.905,"text":"好啊你所謂的你的包括自由住宅你你估算在哪邊你給我資料我我拿到你不能說給我們立委看的資料我們會有一個那個資料跟委員說明那你說啊那些資料不對我還有其他的資料我根據的是其他資料這不是很奇怪嗎"},{"start":644.002,"end":646.965,"text":"我簡單講我簡單跟他們做個結論我是說我認為啦我第一點我認為說你們這個評估如果是建立在施政的CPI上面那這個評估跟未來我們要對應的這個政策會是不對的嘛"},{"start":664.139,"end":687.98,"text":"所以CPI的評估必須很準確也就是說你們必須現在慎重去考慮4月電價漲了以後CPI的影響那是不是6月也要繼續升息那要先有一個對策才對還有我希望主計長你們能夠增加私有住宅租金樣本那這個部分你說有是不是你提供我看"},{"start":689.261,"end":712.115,"text":"好你提供給我好不好還有最後一點齁我希望你們研議說是不是將房價也列入CPI評估的值項目好不好有關於房價那個的話我們並想國際間沒有把房價跟房租是放在一起搞定因為房價是資本財那一個是一個消費財不太一樣"},{"start":713.556,"end":718.043,"text":"已經嚴重影響到嘛對,我們已經把房價跟房租的區別在那邊跟委員說明一下好,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}