{"error":false,"id":["150517"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150517,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150517","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T12:16:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T12:24:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d50c43634c34dce047edc5a8dea5ca6478f8ba9b0039caa7a62a5b4fb6e55fc44f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:16:48 - 12:24:20","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司就電價大漲及央行升息對物價波動的影響進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時16分）主席，有請主計總處、經濟部、台電。"],["主席：朱主計長、曾次長、台電公司總經理。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主計長，請問電價漲，物價會不會漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：按照正常情況之下，它有連鎖效果，應該是會往上。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常好。可是王美花部長的經濟學不太一樣哦！他說不應該以漲電價為由來漲物價，所以意思是電價可以漲，但物價要凍漲嗎？政府要下令凍漲物價了嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，經濟部的報告也都認為說物價會上漲，它……"],["羅委員智強：我知道為難你啦！王美花講就是幹話啦！就這麼簡單啦！一個幹話部長啦！我再請教下一個問題，電價調漲，你知道北捷電費大概占北捷的營運成本多少比例？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概百分之十、十一左右。"],["羅委員智強：我看到數字13，你看到11，但是反正就是有相當重的比例啦！我想請教你，對於北捷面臨了電費上升，然後面臨了營運成本的壓力，一年要支出多5億元的這個情況，你知道陳建仁談到北捷的票價調漲，他的回答是什麼？你知道嗎？陳建仁院長。"],["朱主計長澤民：詳細的情況我不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：他說票價跟漲沒正當性啊！這個邏輯不就跟王美花一樣啊！不可以以漲電價為由漲物價啊！我想請問主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["羅委員智強：你平常也應該有在接觸民生吧！對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["羅委員智強：你知道漲電價這一波，對我們平民老百姓的壓力非常大嘛！對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：他的生活成本可能會提高一點。"],["羅委員智強：會提高啊！商家成本也會提高啊！可是今天我看到我們政府解方竟然是不可以漲電價為由漲物價。你管不了自己漲電價，你去管別人漲物價？就這個邏輯嘛！這叫鴕鳥凍漲法嗎？所以我跟你講，我建議我們的主計總處，主計長，你直接跟大家公布漲電價不會影響物價啦！我們通膨還會下降啦！為什麼？你政府一句話，不要漲就好啦！是這回事嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們今天提給委員會的一個報告，我們就說這個物價會漲多少，會有……"],["羅委員智強：我們告訴主計長，現在還在講是未來式，因為4月漲電價。你知道過去我們的物價就高漲了嗎？一直在漲嗎？知道吧！"],["朱主計長澤民：我公布的我當然知道，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！那您在答詢曾經說過，收入分配不均，貧富差距變大，你覺得政府責任比較大嘛！對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：大家可能有一個不當的連接。我的意思是說，如果社會上有不公平的現象，政府要有……"],["羅委員智強：貧富差距擴大是個事實嘛！這點總不否認吧！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["羅委員智強：對不對？然後，我們勞工實質薪資也在下降啊！那我想請問，貧富差距擴大，弱勢越弱勢，實質薪資下降，勞工也弱勢。可是你現在看到我們的電價這時候調漲，請問我們老百姓怎麼辦啊？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，所以經濟部的方案有對於一定度數以下的，他的漲幅比較低，而且對於一些政策性的，像學校、社福事業、社福機構、農漁用油，他們目前是凍漲的。那對於政策性貸款的利息，我們也沒有把它調升。"],["羅委員智強：您的魄力都不好、不夠，你要學王美花，就一聲令下通通不准漲，對不對？漲電價不可以漲物價，最簡單啊！再不然還有一招我教給我們的主計長啦！也很簡單。你就跟大家講：你放心，我們基本上漲不了多少錢啦！烘焙坊只會漲兩塊錢啦！一天只漲兩塊錢啦！跟大家用這個方式來宣導，我們每個人都覺得漲不了錢，基本上心情就快樂一點，是不是？我們就問台電嘛！我也很謝謝台電啊！台電在這邊嘛！我們的美花部長說，烘焙坊一天漲兩塊，一個月漲60塊。我的大安區，我沒有找到這樣的烘焙坊，你找到是只有門市，沒有烤箱的對不對？這個意思嘛？"],["曾次長文生：是的。"],["羅委員智強：可是，一般的烘焙坊，很多烘焙坊有烤箱是一般的吧？標配吧？除了門市以外啦！你要做烘焙，你沒有烤箱嗎？所以回頭就要講，今天漲電價，人民已經很痛苦了，但不需要是一個幹話部長，做不食人間煙火的這些所謂的粉飾太平，這一點主計長認同吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，據我知道，大規模的賣麵包廠都是由中央廚房出來的。"],["羅委員智強：那它有沒有烤箱？"],["朱主計長澤民：中央廚房會有啦……"],["羅委員智強：當然啊！就算門市沒有，它的工廠也有啊！我就有遇到，有大安區的，它門市還是超過700度啊！工廠當然更不用講了，加起來夯不啷噹也是一樣啊！也是要一個月多一萬塊，你台電說的啊！那請問你到底現在……我直接跟主計長講，也拜託經濟部回去跟部長說一聲啦！好不好？我們區裡面的烘焙業者已經很痛苦，說我們漲電價很痛苦了，為什麼美花部長還一直消費他們？傷口撒鹽嗎？一直拿他們做例子，他們已經很痛苦了。"],["曾次長文生：我想跟委員說明一下，這一點的狀況是這樣子。台電提供的案例，我今天早上一再澄清說確實是門市。因為台電的電費價格的狀況是這樣……"],["羅委員智強：門市的麵包從哪裡來啊？"],["曾次長文生：也是……"],["羅委員智強：就從工廠來，不是嗎？"],["曾次長文生：門市的麵包從……"],["羅委員智強：萬流歸宗，你還是要有烤箱啊！"],["曾次長文生：委員，我……"],["羅委員智強：哪有這樣算的！我就舉我大安區例子告訴你了嘛！我大安區就有門市跟有工廠的嘛！"],["曾次長文生：我應該要這樣說，我們……"],["羅委員智強：連門市都超過700度，不要講工廠了！"],["曾次長文生：倒反過來講啦！就是我們要找一個700度以下的case，選的case選得不好，我覺得這個……"],["羅委員智強：你不只這個case選得不好……"],["曾次長文生：我覺得這個……"],["羅委員智強：美花部長連個話都不會講，什麼叫漲電價不可以漲物價？"],["曾次長文生：沒有啦！他也應該不是這個……我講說原意也不是這樣。"],["羅委員智強：那也拜託你講話精準一點，以上。"],["曾次長文生：我……"],["主席：好，謝謝。下一個質詢請……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他因為找不到那家麵包店，就很生氣……"],["主席：牛煦庭，請牛委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不好意思！"],["主席：有請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","郭國文","賴惠員","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","王世堅","鄭天財Sra 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對不對你知道漲電價這一波對我們平民老百姓的壓力非常大嘛 對不對會提高啊商家成本會提高啊可是今天我看到我們政府解放竟然是不可以漲電價唯有漲物價你管不了自己漲電價你去管別人漲物價"},{"start":140.558,"end":152.452,"text":"就這個邏輯嗎?是要駝鳥洞掌法嗎?所以我跟你講我建議我們的主計總處主計處主計長你直接跟大家公佈漲電價不會影響物價我們通膨還會下降"},{"start":156.172,"end":182.839,"text":"為什麼你政府一句話不要漲就好啦是這回事嗎跟那個委員報告一下我們的提給今天委員會的一個報告我們就說這個物價會漲多少會有我們告訴主計長現在還在講是未來式因為4月漲電價你知道過去我們的物價就高漲了嗎一直在漲嗎知道吧我公布的我當然知道謝謝對啊"},{"start":183.905,"end":210.722,"text":"那您在答詢曾經問過收入分配不均貧富差距變大你就政府責任比較大嘛 對不對我的意思說大家可能有一個不當的連接我的意思說如果是那個是社會上有不公平的現象政府要有貧富差距擴大是個事實嘛這點總不否認吧 對不對然後呢我們勞工時日薪資也在下降啊"},{"start":211.923,"end":232.577,"text":"那我想請問貧富差距擴大,弱勢越弱勢,實質薪資下降,勞工也弱勢可是現在你現在看到我們的電價這時候調漲,請問我們的老百姓怎麼辦啊跟那個委員報告講,所以經濟部的方案有對於那個說一定那個度數以下的他的漲幅比較低"},{"start":234.397,"end":239.141,"text":"您的這個破例都不好不夠你要學王美花就一聲令下通通不准漲對不對漲電價不可以漲物價最簡單啊"},{"start":262.935,"end":291.937,"text":"再不然還有一招我交給我們的那個主計長啦也很簡單你就跟大家講齁你放心我們這個基本上漲不了多少錢啦這烘焙坊只會漲兩塊錢啦一天只漲兩塊錢啦跟大家用這個方式來宣導我們每個人都覺得漲不了錢基本上心情就快樂一點是不是你知道我們就問台電嘛台電我也很謝謝台電啊台電在這邊嘛我們的美化部長說烘焙坊啊"},{"start":293.152,"end":314.369,"text":"一天漲2塊一個月漲60塊我的單區我沒有找到這個烘焙房這樣的烘焙房你找的是只有門市沒有烤箱的對不對這個意思嗎可是一般的烘焙房很多烘焙房有烤箱是一般的吧標配吧除了門市以外啦你要做烘焙你沒有烤箱嗎"},{"start":315.484,"end":335.878,"text":"所以回頭就要講今天漲電價人民已經很痛苦了但不需要是一個幹話部長做不死人間煙火的這些所謂的粉飾太平這一點主計長你認同吧跟那個委員報告一下據我知道大規模的那個賣麵包廠都是由中央租房出來的"},{"start":337.273,"end":358.158,"text":"他有沒有烤箱?中央廚房會有啦當然啊!你要不要不然發射在就算你門市沒有他的工廠也有啊我就有遇到有單區的他門市也是還是超過700度啊他工廠當然更不用講了加起來夯不啷噹也是一樣啊也是要一萬塊多一個月多一萬塊你台電說的啊"},{"start":360.063,"end":382.184,"text":"那請問你到底現在你知道我直接跟那個主席講拜託經濟部回去跟部長說一聲啦好不好我們區裡面的那個烘焙業者已經很痛苦了他說我們漲電價很痛苦了為什麼美華部長還一直消費他們傷口灑鹽嗎一直拿他們做例子他們已經很痛苦了"},{"start":384.329,"end":396.955,"text":"我想跟委員說明一下這一點的狀況是這樣子台電提供的案例我今天早上一再就澄清說確實是門市那因為台電的電費價格門市的麵包從哪裡來啊就從工廠來不是嗎"},{"start":402.738,"end":403.859,"text":"道反過來講啦,就是我們要找一個700度以下的case"},{"start":424.915,"end":425.055,"text":"下一個質詢請"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}