{"error":false,"id":["150524"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150524,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150524","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,23],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T12:18:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T12:26:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5b8f3ee6df04e5f89e53fb40122520aebf8ba9b0039caa7a6cbda416f767935b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:18:10 - 12:26:03","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。【上開議案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時18分）我想請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好！"],["主席：我來補充報告一下，俟黃珊珊委員質詢完，我們中午就休息用餐，下午1時30分繼續開會。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長！審計部對於政府推動交通安全改善的情況曾經有過報告，認為全國市區道路有三分之一的道路人行道淨寬不足，有三分之一的路段沒有完成電纜地下化，所以周邊交通事故頻繁，人行道小於0.9公尺的話，輪椅也沒辦法通過，騎樓整平也是身障通行的難題，人行道猶如輪椅殺手，我們內政部本來就有市區道路條例及市區道路跟附屬工程設計標準，所以內政部提的這個行人交通安全設施條例的草案是市區道路條例的特別法嗎？"],["林部長右昌：其實並不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：它是另外一個新的基本法？"],["林部長右昌：這是一個作用法。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是一個什麼法？"],["林部長右昌：作用法。"],["黃委員珊珊：跟原來市區道路設計的道路條例的關係是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：我們在這一部分，以前針對人行道……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長！我就直接講，市區道路條例很清楚規定人行道上原則上不劃設機車停車格，但是從這個條例施行到現在，這件事情沒有被遵守過，各個縣市政府在人行道上劃設了一大堆機車停車格，不是嗎？後來我們又設了道路交通管理處罰條例，又說在人行道也可以設置必要的號誌標線，另行規定機車、慢車的停車處所，我今天要講的就是中華民國的法律各自互相捍格，而且互相重複。市區道路條例及附屬的工程設計標準不准在人行道上設機車停車格，道交條例可以，請問部長，人民要聽哪一個？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，所以這一個法就是在對於人行道有一個很清楚的定義。"],["黃委員珊珊：你要立一個新的法，我想問你這個新的法是不是可以推翻這兩個現有的法？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，所以這就是為什麼這個法後面會銜接施行細則還有我們的一個標準，該重修的就要重修。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們都來自地方政府，我們都知道這些規範，市區道路條例施行很久了，但是當地方政府因為可能里長要求、住戶不同意、管道不通、第四台不願意遷移或者是水電瓦斯公司找不到地方遷等等，所以我們的道路或是人行道設計常年、幾十年來永遠沒有按照市區道路條例來設置，對吧？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，我覺得它原來的定義是說原則上禁止，但是設計的時候必須要保留一定的淨寬，現在就剩下……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以各位，我們有法律然後不遵守，然後不遵守法律之後，我們對地方政府也沒有任何的罰則。我今天就要問了，這個新的行人交通安全設施條例草案一樣有很多基本的概念，但是有沒有任何對於地方政府要求的強制規定？有沒有？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：有還是沒有？"],["吳署長欣修：重點是在罰則。"],["黃委員珊珊：重點是罰的是誰？罰的是人！你有沒有罰過地方政府？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，新的這個條例裡面就是扣地方的補助款。"],["黃委員珊珊：扣地方的補助款？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：林部長！你覺得扣地方補助款就有用嗎？扣地方補助款就是恐嚇嘛！扣完之後，它依然故我，它沒有按照你的行人交通安全設施條例去設置，我們只是扣補助款嗎？我今天要問的是這個法到底有沒有強制性，你只是扣補助款就可以解決現在大家擔心的行人地獄的問題嗎？"],["林部長右昌：當然沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個法你覺得夠好還是可以更好？"],["林部長右昌：當然可以更好，委員我跟你報告，其實我跟同仁也有在檢討這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：道交條例跟這個法裡面的罰則有重複的部分，你知道嗎？有捍格的、有重複的、有競合的，還有罰緩。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員補充一句，就是說剛剛在講的罰鍰，我是認為這個的效果不會太大，所以我們會在細則的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們對地方政府的強制力在哪裡？如果只是扣補助款，部長我現在就可以告訴你：沒有用！"],["林部長右昌：這個我瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：市區道路條例已經實施多少年了，你早就可以扣補助款了！扣補助款可以讓這件事情導正嗎？"],["林部長右昌：當然做不到。"],["黃委員珊珊：在日本、在新加坡，所有的道路設計都有明文規範而且很清楚，所以每一個城市的規範都要完整到位，現在的問題就在於我們有法律，我們不執行，我們不執行又只能嚇嚇他扣補助款，但是若做不到也沒轍，兩手一攤。今天又要設計一個新的法，我們很樂見，這表示政府對於行人安全的重視，但是看完這個法，我很失望，因為它又是一個空泛的基本法，第一，對於地方政府沒有直接的強制性；第二，沒有對地方政府的設計需做到符合這個規範有任何要求；最嚴重的是還跟其他的法規互相衝突，這是什麼基本法？"],["林部長右昌：他設計一定要照標準，這點……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有照標準的時候就是扣補助款！這件事情請部長給我一個很清楚的答復，你有什麼樣的工具可以讓這個事情……"],["林部長右昌：他如果不照標準的話，案子……"],["黃委員珊珊：就不會驗收啊！"],["林部長右昌：就不會准，我們連准都不會准。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是啊！現在地方政府的東西多得一塌糊塗啊！"],["林部長右昌：那個是舊的，所以為什麼這次需要這個法，它不是一個基本法，而是我們對於安全設施的一個作用法。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在最重要的一件事，剛剛講了你這個基本法送過來，我要求兩件事，第一，跟其他法規的競合要把它釐清楚，到底人行道能不能停車、人行道能不能停腳踏車、人行道能不能要求機車必須要停機車灣，這些基本的捍格的東西要處理。第二，道交條例的罰鍰跟你這個新法罰鍰兩個衝突的地方要做處理。最重要的，我希望部長這邊要做一件事，就是讓地方政府都能澈底的執行中華民國的法律，而不是只是參考用。"],["林部長右昌：是，當然。委員再跟你補充一下，因為道交條例最主要的是管行為，我們這個法是管設施。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是道交條例讓機慢車可以上人行道，設施條例又不行，沒關係！修掉！不要放在那邊好看，這邊不行那邊可以，中華民國兩個法律可以完全不一樣，百姓就會因為這樣子愈來愈不相信政府，這才是問題。"],["林部長右昌：對這一部分，我們會照委員的意思跟交通部研究。"],["黃委員珊珊：請在一個禮拜之內把我剛剛講的這些可能的衝突問題做個釐清，給我一個書面回復。"],["林部長右昌：沒問題，其實這在研擬的過程裡面也都討論過，我們一個禮拜內把書面提供給委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：把衝突的部分、捍格的部分，甚至有所謂競合的部分，把它釐清楚。謝謝！"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢，現在休息，我們中午休息時間到1時30分，下午1時30分繼續開會。謝謝！","休息（12時26分）","繼續開會（13時34分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，我們繼續來質詢。","請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","黃建賓","蘇巧慧","李昆澤","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","徐富癸","何欣純","林沛祥","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","廖先翔","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","游顥","洪申翰","李柏毅","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","陳素月","魯明哲","黃仁","劉建國","林國成","張智倫","丁學忠","林月琴","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案；\n(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1132101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.52721875,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.269718750000003,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.816593750000003,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.96846875,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.54159375,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.84909375,"end":34.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.57409375,"end":39.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.97409375,"end":42.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.353468750000005,"end":51.330968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.92159375,"end":53.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.60909375,"end":57.540968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.13159375,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.67409375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.24784375,"end":70.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.99034375000001,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.96471875,"end":72.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.21784375,"end":74.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.93909375,"end":7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幾十年應該這麼說因為我覺得他原來的定義是說原則上是禁止但是你如果要設計的時候那你必須要保留一定的境寬所以各位就是我們有法律然後不遵守然後有法律不遵守之後我們對他們地方政府也沒有任何的法則我今天就要問了這個新的行人交通安全設施條例草案一樣"},{"start":210.751,"end":236.659,"text":"有很多基本的概念但是有沒有任何對於地方政府要求的強制規定有沒有是跟委員報告就是說有還是沒有重點是在罰者重點是罰的是誰罰的是人你有沒有罰過地方政府跟委員報告新的這個條例裡面就是扣地方的補助款扣地方的補助款林部長你覺得扣地方補助款就有用嗎"},{"start":238.188,"end":244.113,"text":"我今天要問的是這個法到底有沒有強制性你只是扣補助款就可以解決現在大家擔心的行人地域的問題嗎當然沒有是這個法你覺得還不夠好還是還可以更好"},{"start":264.649,"end":272.955,"text":"當然可以更好。其實這個我跟同仁也有在檢討這個。道交條例跟這個法裡面的法則有重複的你知道嗎?"},{"start":275.235,"end":278.917,"text":"市區道路條例已經試試多少年了,你早就可以課補助款了。"},{"start":301.387,"end":301.508,"text":"議員黃珊珊"},{"start":323.351,"end":350.699,"text":"做不到沒轍兩手一攤今天又要設計一個新的法我們很樂見這表示政府對於行人安全的重視但是看完這個法我很失望因為它又是一個空泛的基本法它對於地方政府沒有直接的強制性第二個沒有對於這個規範有任何的要求地方政府做到設計要符合這個規範最嚴重的是還跟其他的法規互相衝突這是什麼基本法"},{"start":353.86,"end":373.171,"text":"誰要回答我呢?他設計一定要照標準沒有照標準的時候就是扣補助款這件事情請部長給我一個很清楚你有什麼樣的工具他如果不照標準的話案子就不會準我們連準都不會準是啊你現在地方政府的東西多得一塌糊塗啊"},{"start":374.309,"end":374.369,"text":"議員黃珊珊"},{"start":394.415,"end":394.895,"text":"議員黃珊珊議員黃珊珊議員黃珊珊"},{"start":419.365,"end":441.735,"text":"是當然委員再跟你補充一下因為道交條例它最主要的管行為我們這是管設施但是道交條例讓人讓機慢車又可以上人行道但是世紀設施條例又不行沒關係修掉不要放在那邊好看那邊不行那邊可以一個最好的兩個法律可以完全不一樣"},{"start":443.1,"end":443.34,"text":"黃珊珊"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}