{"error":false,"id":["150527"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150527,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150527","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T12:20:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T12:29:45+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d57979dc51e7fd1e6df9597c3f3f044368f8ba9b0039caa7a6a9fd4a0889155ef15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:20:54 - 12:29:45","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":851,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時20分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["張委員啓楷：中科院也一起好了。"],["邱部長國正：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長好。無人機出現Made in China這件事已經被問一個早上了，我先講結論，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我國的軍用無人機百分之百去紅色供應鏈不應該破功，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["張委員啓楷：也不會破功吧？也就是說，我們落實國產化應該是可以完成的，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：是，可以掌握的。"],["張委員啓楷：可以作這樣的宣示嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以啊！我們目前都已經照這個規範在掌握，我們有信心。"],["張委員啓楷：對，包括部長跟中科院。","我是嘉義小孩，中科院願意到嘉義設置無人機AI創新研發中心，這是我們嘉義人的驕傲。可是當賴清德去了卻看到這個，我覺得要跟民眾講清楚為什麼馬達上面會出現Made in China。它是為了測試嘛！對不對？大家看一下，事實上，整個無人機有五大系統，馬達是非常、非常低階的啦！我相信依照臺灣的科技跟工業技術，無人機的馬達我們可以做啊！對不對？所以這件事有兩個重點，第一是為了測試才出現在那個地方，對不對？第二，我相信依照我們的水準，我們做得到。沒問題吧！是不是？這樣應該可以把疑慮解決。","可是相對地，我要問一個重點，雖然馬達是那麼低階的，可是還有兩個比較高階的部分啊！就是飛控跟導控，這是比較高階的，對不對？飛控系統就像人的大腦一樣，在這部分，中科院目前掌握的進度怎麼樣？不會弄到又是Made in China，對不對？可以Made in Taiwan嗎？這兩部分可以嗎？"],["張院長忠誠：我跟委員報告。確實，無人機有五大系統，對於飛控跟動力這些比較小的，其實國內能量都有，這是實在話，所以我們有幾款小型飛機都釋商。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！所以你是說不只馬達，在導控跟飛控部分，我們都可以……"],["張院長忠誠：好，現在講到重點了。"],["張委員啓楷：我們已經可以做到了，對不對？"],["張院長忠誠：是。至於中大型飛機的導控部分就比較複雜，還包括整個抗干擾，這些鏈結都由中科院自己生產、製作。"],["張委員啓楷：你的意思是目前在飛控與導控方面我們已經做得到了？"],["張院長忠誠：是的。"],["張委員啓楷：不只是馬達喔？這是要接受檢視的喔！"],["張院長忠誠：當然、當然。"],["張委員啓楷：在國會殿堂要很清楚地跟全國民眾講。"],["張院長忠誠：核心仍然是由中科院掌控。"],["張委員啓楷：不只是馬達，在飛控與導控能力上，臺灣的工業跟科技能力也是可以做到的？"],["張院長忠誠：是，整個飛控軟體。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們要達成軍用飛機百分之百國產化沒有問題？"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，謝謝。"],["張院長忠誠：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我請教你一下。你說你有注意到前國安會秘書長丁渝洲談到終戰指導？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你個人贊成嗎？他認為他應該向蔡英文總統、特別是賴清德準總統提醒趕快制定，你贊成嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，對於任何一個人的言論，不管是學者、專家所發表的意見，我相信都是有依據的、有其立論基礎，我不會作評論。正常來講，啟戰之前要先有終戰，但我們的國家並沒有啟戰這個作為，沒有啊！完全沒有！至於要不要有終戰指導，就不屬於我的層級。對我們軍方層級來講，對於所謂終戰，我已經講啦！就是奉陪到底吧！但我不把它當終戰指導來看，因為茲事體大，是高層級而且是從政治方面考量的，不是由我來答復的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，兵法上講了，要啟戰、要開始打仗很容易嘛！但終戰非常困難。你看，烏克蘭和俄羅斯已經打了快兩年，我看了最新統計，現在烏克蘭這邊死傷已經有18萬到26萬，俄羅斯更多了，有30萬，可是損害誰？哪一方生靈塗炭更嚴重？戰場在哪裡？在烏克蘭。所以戰爭沒有贏家嘛！部長一向是悲天憫懷的，我知道，因為我看了你長久的發言，所以要避戰嘛！對不對？我覺得比丁渝洲這個主張更高層的概念不是終戰，而是要知道只要一打仗，對兩邊的民眾都是不好的，所以重點是不是反而是慈悲為懷、要先避戰？我第一點要特別請問部長的是，如果總統，不管是蔡總統還是賴準總統問起你本身要有終戰指導，你會怎麼跟他們講？還是只回復你剛剛講的？你不會只有奉陪到底吧？要打就來嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不是這樣的，我跟委員報告。我剛才講了，我的身分、地位我很清楚，就是對於軍人該講什麼話、作多少本務工作，我的確應該克盡職責，長官如果來問的話，我會就我的立場來講、來看。目前沒有任何人問我「你的看法如何？」就算要我看，我也是就軍事立場來講。當然我也會建議儘量避免啟戰，這是必然的，而且是從古到今。而且我在部長任內，不管是很多先進或各方面人士都在跟我強調，戰爭誠如剛剛委員講的沒有贏家，我也曾經講過，打贏也是慘勝，要是打敗絕對是慘敗，沒有贏家，這是不樂意見到的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長避戰、慈悲為懷這點，大家是肯定的。但現在因為已經有人提了終戰這一塊，你剛剛又講了沒有贏家，所以如果總統或賴副總統、準總統問你的話，你會贊成他訂一個像丁渝洲講的終戰指導？"],["邱部長國正：不，我會講終戰的原則，就是啟戰要先訂終戰。"],["張委員啓楷：所以是先不要戰了嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對，不……"],["張委員啓楷：是先不要戰，所以就沒有終戰了嘛！"],["邱部長國正：若要開始打，那要先訂好目標是到什麼地步。但我們的國家並沒有要發起戰爭的緣由啊！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們不會求戰啦！對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對，我們不求戰，所以這是高層級他們……"],["張委員啓楷：我們不會求戰，問題是丁渝洲是在提醒兩岸惡意螺旋現在看來是在往上走，也有可能擦槍走火啊！你前一陣子還說你有時候擔心到睡不著覺啊！"],["邱部長國正：我是講我前一陣子一直很擔憂，我一直很擔憂。"],["張委員啓楷：如果真的擦槍走火，我們除了避戰之外，是不是也應該有一套計畫什麼時候停下來？像俄羅斯跟烏克蘭現在就停不下來啊！兩邊都不讓步，美國又進去，都停不下來啊！怎麼辦？是否也要有所準備？"],["邱部長國正：這個就是……"],["張委員啓楷：萬一擦槍走火，我們要作什麼準備？"],["邱部長國正：我們平常戰備不就是作出準備嗎？"],["主席：張委員，時間差不多了。"],["張委員啓楷：我還剩一點點時間啦！因為部長剛剛講了一句話很重要：「奉陪到底」，那在奉陪到底之外，有沒有可以停下來的作法？"],["邱部長國正：奉陪到底是真的逼不得已啦！我剛才也有講啊！我們要避免「啟戰」，「啟」代表開啟戰爭，這是我們的主要原則嘛！有一些屬於政治範疇，我不便探究。但要是問我的意見，我會把我們在軍事上的著眼與立場講清楚，就是儘量要慎戰，「謹慎」的「慎」啦！我一再強調「慎戰」。"],["張委員啓楷：「慎戰」、避免戰爭。那萬一、如果不小心？現在惡意螺旋在上來……"],["邱部長國正：那我們就克盡我們的職責。"],["張委員啓楷：擦槍走火的時候，我們要……"],["邱部長國正：就克盡我們軍人的職責。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：不會只有「奉陪到底」，對不對？還會有其他方法？讓人民可以安心、不會生靈塗炭？謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：我們不是在講……"],["主席：我們通常不會在國會講終戰條件，你卻把終戰條件攤開給對方看。"],["張委員啓楷：不是攤開給對方，而是要有一個……"],["主席：這個有時候要適量討論，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：也有人認為這是敗戰，但事實上不是敗戰嘛！"],["主席：部長請回座，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：丁渝洲講的是儘量避免。老實講，兩岸真的打起來，像烏克蘭跟俄羅斯戰爭，俄羅斯那麼大，但烏克蘭現在也沒有輸啊！"],["邱部長國正：我用幾秒鐘跟委員作個說明……"],["張委員啓楷：定宇，你不要那麼悲觀……"],["主席：我不是悲觀……"],["張委員啓楷：而且這不是國家機密，我們要準備、要充分表現，人民才會安心。"],["邱部長國正：大家不要這樣敏感，事實上，我也早就講過，任何一位專家學者講的話都有其立論基礎，我都予以尊重，但如果問國防部、要國防部做評論，是要把國防部拖進去啊！不好啦！"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦！部長，我不是拖你進去，而是讓你講，你說你有準備，就讓全民一起來聽，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我是好意地提醒。"],["邱部長國正：我也是很好意地跟委員報告、跟大家報告。"],["張委員啓楷：我們是共同好意，而且要守住國家就是要好好準備啦！"],["主席：肯定好意啦！時間差不多了。"],["張委員啓楷：定宇，對不對？你看，都還要兵推耶！當然就是為了好好準備。"],["主席：在國防委員會這裡，對於接戰的SOP、編裝，還有一些東西是不討論的，不是我這個時候，一、二十年來都是這樣。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啦！我在談的是丁渝洲這個好意提醒。對於部長這樣回答，老實講我也算滿意啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝，滿意就好。"],["張委員啓楷：可是我要強調，這件事不是不能討論，而且大家本來就要討論，你要捍衛主權對不對？那本來就要做好所有配套啊！要做好所有準備。"],["主席：張委員，時間到了，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：今天部長答得很好，可是要好好討論，人民才能安心，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來詢答的委員是蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來詢答的委員是王鴻薇。王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","李柏毅、李柏毅、李柏毅委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","今日已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報。相關機關除了今天詢答中跟委員約定時間者，剛才有一件是約定3個月的，請按照時程回復以外，其餘於2周內以書面答復。本日委員口頭質詢未及答復部分也請相關單位提供補充。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","黃仁","羅美玲","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","洪申翰","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","林德福","羅智強","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","張啓楷","王鴻薇"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國軍無人機運用的現況及發展」，併請行政院國土安全辦公室列席，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1132001_00016"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.77346875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.6759687500000005,"end":4.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.283468750000001,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.10534375,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.923468750000001,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.47596875,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.028468750000002,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.27221875,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29.039093750000003,"end":29.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.528468750000002,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.658468750000004,"end":35.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.16471875,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.970343750000005,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.67909375,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.336593750000006,"end":45.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.98159375,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.42784375,"end":60.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.74721875,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.210968750000006,"end":66.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.64909375,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.92721875000001,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.76221875,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.68596875,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.81221875,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.69346875000001,"end":82.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.87034375,"end":84.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.28346875000001,"end":85.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.36346875000001,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.53159375,"end":93.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.27784375,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.94846875,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":97.33221875000001,"end":97.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.56346875000001,"end":103.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.71534375,"end":106.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.05659375,"end":106.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.63034375000001,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.03096875,"end":133.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.81784375000001,"end":123.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.12971875000001,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.72034375000001,"end":126.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.74846875,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.69721875000002,"end":157.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.68409375000002,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.45159375,"end":143.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.05471875,"end":147.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.31596875,"end":149.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.29034375,"end":149.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.73284375,"end":153.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.25596875000002,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.96409375000002,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.99721875,"end":167.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.75159375,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.65784375,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.77596875,"end":180.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.72846875000002,"end":182.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.38221875000002,"end":188.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.52971875,"end":183.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.42346875,"end":199.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.62909375,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.57409375,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.45971875,"end":202.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.95284375,"end":218.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.34284375000001,"end":222.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.84846875000002,"end":227.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.80971875,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.77971875,"end":234.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.93096875,"end":237.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.74909375000001,"end":240.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.91721875000002,"end":243.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.38096875000002,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.84846875000002,"end":259.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.87221875,"end":268.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.78221875,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.90409375,"end":277.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.94971875000005,"end":282.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.11346875000004,"end":282.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.26534375,"end":291.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.93471875,"end":305.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.55284375,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":314.81721875,"end":314.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":318.32721875000004,"end":318.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.41159375,"end":318.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.02284375,"end":323.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.60909375,"end":327.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.64221875000004,"end":327.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.70971875000004,"end":332.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.76034375,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.94096875,"end":337.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.07596875,"end":333.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.81784375,"end":340.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.66971875,"end":345.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.97284375000004,"end":346.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.72784375000003,"end":358.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.86284375,"end":349.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.52784375000005,"end":375.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.43471875,"end":360.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.70034375,"end":362.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.05346875000004,"end":369.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.88034375,"end":372.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.60096875000005,"end":377.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.79471875,"end":384.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.57409375000003,"end":385.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.91159375,"end":388.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.94534375,"end":386.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.69159375000004,"end":394.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.75034375,"end":393.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.87659375000004,"end":399.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.12534375,"end":395.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.08721875000003,"end":419.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.33971875000003,"end":400.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.60909375,"end":405.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.87471875,"end":405.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.89159375,"end":406.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.80284375,"end":406.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.81971875000005,"end":406.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.39346875,"end":407.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.24846875000003,"end":417.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.84721875,"end":419.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.86409375000005,"end":420.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.88096875,"end":428.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.83784375000005,"end":431.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.67284375,"end":428.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.02721875000003,"end":434.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.42346875000004,"end":431.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.53721875,"end":433.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.37659375000004,"end":437.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.44409375000004,"end":435.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.50284375,"end":436.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.34659375,"end":437.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.41409375,"end":439.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.70096875,"end":440.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.70909375,"end":440.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.14784375000005,"end":440.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.53159375,"end":443.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.80971875,"end":460.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.55221875,"end":447.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.69096875,"end":447.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":451.03221875,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.02784375000005,"end":453.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.79909375000005,"end":458.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.69346875,"end":459.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.78596875000005,"end":460.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.97159375,"end":461.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.03909375,"end":478.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.89971875000003,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.97034375000004,"end":469.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.41284375000004,"end":472.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.46346875,"end":472.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.81721875000005,"end":480.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.87159375000005,"end":480.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.66471875,"end":480.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.76596875,"end":484.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.88409375000003,"end":483.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":483.02721875000003,"end":499.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.37284375,"end":485.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.26721875000004,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.03909375,"end":490.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.97534375000004,"end":491.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.02596875,"end":491.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":491.07659375000003,"end":491.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.17784375,"end":492.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.17346875000004,"end":508.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":506.70284375000006,"end":527.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.72346875000005,"end":510.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.29721875,"end":510.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.3559687500001,"end":513.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.00971875,"end":514.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.97159375,"end":515.0559687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.00846875,"end":531.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.676,"end":20.823,"text":"謝謝主席。請部長報告。我請鍾克燕一起。莊委員好。部長好。無人機出現沒得飲菜,已經被問了一個早上,我先講結論好不好。"},{"start":22.386,"end":44.677,"text":"我們的軍用無人機百分之百棄紅色供應鏈也就是不應該破功,對不對?也不會破功吧?就是我們落實國產化應該是可以完成的,對不對?可以做這樣的宣示嗎?可以啊,我們現在目前都已經就照這個規範來掌握對,部長跟中科院,因為我是自己的孩子"},{"start":46.198,"end":68.907,"text":"中科院願意到嘉義來設這個我們無人機AI的創新研發中心這是我們嘉義人的驕傲那可是當賴清德去了看到這個我覺得要跟民眾講清楚為什麼會出現那個馬達上面有Made in China他是為了測試嘛對不對事實上整個無人機大家看一下無人機有五大系統那個馬達是非常非常"},{"start":71.242,"end":84.119,"text":"我相信依照臺灣的科技跟工業技術這個無人機運馬達我們可以做啊所以有兩個重點嘛第一點它是為了測試才出現在那個地方第二個我相信依照我們的追準我們做得到沒問題吧"},{"start":85.376,"end":106.604,"text":"是不是?這樣應該把疑慮可以解決可是相對我要問一個重點雖然馬達是那麼低階的可是那有兩個比較高階的啊飛控跟導控這是比較高階的嘛對不對?飛控就像人的大腦一樣那這部分中科院目前掌握的進度是怎麼樣?不會弄到又是 made in China 對不對?可以 made in Taiwan 嗎?"},{"start":106.984,"end":120.476,"text":"這兩部分可以嗎我跟委員報告你確實無人機是五大系統飛控跟動力那比較小的其實國內的人量都有這是實在話所以我們幾個小型飛機我們都試上"},{"start":121.897,"end":142.263,"text":"抱歉所以你說不只是馬達在導控跟飛控這部分我們已經可以做得到對不對那中大型的它導控的這個部分就比較複雜這部分還包括整個抗崗樓這個鏈結都是由中間自己來生產來製作抱歉你的意思是目前在飛控跟導控我們已經做得到是不是是的不只是馬達"},{"start":143.724,"end":160.843,"text":"這個是要接受檢視的喔在國會殿堂很清楚地跟全國民眾講這是馬達飛控跟導控臺灣的工業跟科技能力是可以做得到的所以我們要達成金融飛機的百分之百國產化沒有問題OK好謝謝來部長我請教你一下"},{"start":162.065,"end":187.37,"text":"部長你最近有注意到前國安委秘書長丁玉洲的這個中戰的這個指導你個人贊成嗎他認為說他應該跟蔡英文總統特別是賴清德準總統提醒要趕快制定你贊成嗎我跟委員報告對任何一個不管學者專家他們所發表意見我相信都是有依據的有他理論基礎我不去做評論但正常來講的話"},{"start":188.69,"end":200.056,"text":"起戰的話 要起戰之前是要有中戰但我們國家並沒有這個起戰的這個作為我沒有啊 完全沒有但要不要有中戰之道這不是我們層級對我軍方層級來講的話"},{"start":203.024,"end":228.878,"text":"我所謂所謂中戰就是我們已經講了就是奉陪到底吧但我不做這個把當作一個中戰指導來看這是知識體大這高層級而且政治方面考量的這不是我來答覆的部長兵法上面講的要起戰要開始打仗很容易嘛中戰非常困難嘛現在講的你看烏克蘭跟俄羅斯已經打了快兩年了對不對現在我去看他最新的這個統計"},{"start":230.991,"end":232.873,"text":"烏克蘭這邊死傷已經18萬到26萬俄羅斯更多了30萬可是損害誰生靈塗炭更嚴重戰場在哪裡在烏克蘭所以戰爭沒有贏家嘛"},{"start":244.414,"end":267.756,"text":"阿部長一向是悲天敏懷的我知道我看了你長久的這個發言所以要避戰嘛對不對我覺得丁怡說這個更高層的不是終戰就是你要知道那個對只要一打仗對兩邊的民眾都是不好的所以是不是他一個重點反而是慈悲為懷要先避戰那第一個我現在要提要特別要請問部長的是所以你會不會如果總統不管是蔡總統或者是"},{"start":269.157,"end":290.09,"text":"賴準總統問起你,你要本身要有一個中戰的一個指導,你會怎麼跟他講?還是只有回覆你剛剛講的,你不會只有奉陪到底吧?要打就來嗎?我跟委員報告,我剛剛講我的身份地位我很清楚,軍人該講什麼話,做多少本務工作,就我的確我應該要有科興職責。長官如果要問的話,我會就我的立場來講,來看。"},{"start":292.111,"end":317.21,"text":"所以到目前沒有任何人問我你看法如何就算我看法如何我也是就一個軍事立場來講但我會建議盡量避免起戰這個是必然的從古到今而且在部長任內很多不管是先進各方面都一直在跟我強調戰爭真的陳副官務委員講的沒有贏家我也曾經講過要打贏也是產勝"},{"start":318.511,"end":335.075,"text":"要打敗就決定慘敗都沒有贏家所以不樂意見到所以部長必戰然後慈悲委懷這個大家是肯定的那現在就是因為已經有人提了這個終戰這一塊嘛對不對你剛講又沒有贏家嘛所以你現在如果總統或者是賴副總統準總統問你的話"},{"start":337.876,"end":364.779,"text":"你會贊成他定一個像丁一舟講的中戰?我會講中戰的要起戰要先定中戰所以先不要戰了對不對?對先不要戰所以就沒有中戰你要開始打那你先要定好你的目標到什麼地步但我們國家並沒有要發起戰爭的這個原因部長我們不會求戰對不對?現在問題丁一舟是在提醒說兩岸現在看起來那個惡意螺旋在往上走"},{"start":365.519,"end":367.1,"text":"萬一擦槍走火沒有做什麼準備?"},{"start":389.844,"end":399.528,"text":"我們平常戰備好,不就做多些準備嗎?我還是一點點時間,因為部長剛剛講的很重要,奉陪到底之外有沒有可以停下?我們避免開啟戰爭,這是我們主要的。"},{"start":407.572,"end":428.029,"text":"但有一些政治的範疇我們不便就但問我的意見的話我會把我們軍事的左眼立場來講清楚就是說儘量要慎戰啦慎戰避免戰爭那萬一如果不小心現在惡意螺旋在上來我們就克盡我們的職責不會只有奉陪到底對不對還會有其他的方法"},{"start":434.634,"end":456.985,"text":"讓人民可以安心不會生靈投胎謝謝謝謝好謝謝部長我們通常不會在國會講中戰條件你把中戰條件探根給對方看不是探給對方啦要有一個本來在講因為也有人認為說這是一個敗戰的一個事實上不是敗戰嘛對不對事實上第一種講的第一種講的是說盡量避免盡量避免然後講兩戰爭打起來"},{"start":457.665,"end":484.111,"text":"你像烏克蘭跟俄羅斯,俄羅斯那麼大,現在烏克蘭也沒有輸啊。我用幾秒鐘的時間,我來跟你們做說明,大家都不要那麼悲觀。你要準備,你要重問表現成你才會有安心。事實上我也早就講過,任何一個專家學講的話,它都有立正的基礎,我都與你尊重。但你要問國防部來做個評論,你一定要把他拖進去啊。沒有啦,部長,我不是拖你進去,我是讓你講了,讓大家,你說你有準備,讓全民給安心。好不好,部長,我是好意,"},{"start":484.571,"end":485.051,"text":"接戰的SOP"},{"start":502.922,"end":520.811,"text":"編裝還有些東西我們在這裡是不討論的這不是我這個時候沒有啦我在談的是丁渝洲的這個好意的這個提醒有啦部長這樣回答老蔣我也算滿意啦好謝謝可是我再強調了不是說這個事情不能討論這事情本來大家要討論你要捍衛你的主權對不對你本來要做好所有的配套啊"},{"start":521.371,"end":522.133,"text":"蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}