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12:42:42","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司就電價大漲及央行升息對物價波動的影響進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1237,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時31分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，首先想請台電、經濟部。"],["主席：請台電曾次長。"],["曾次長文生：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們台電公開的資訊說核電今年度每度成本僅剩下1.11元，還遠低於燃氣的3.2元、再生能源的5元，現在我們2部核能機組跟當時的6部來比，我們會少掉多少億度電呢？"],["曾次長文生：如果容量因素都完整的話，核二大概是150億度、核一大概是100億度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒回答本席的提問。"],["曾次長文生：加起來250億度沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我告訴你會少掉250億度電，如果以綠電全面來替代，光是燃料支出就要將近1,000億元，所以即使以燃氣來取代，台電也要增加五百多億元，這是在你們官方網站告訴我們的，所以本席請教董事長也是次長，台電去年花了905億元購買再生能源，今年看到你的預算編了1,325億元，增加了420億元，但是核電這兩年將退役完畢，因為我們在經濟委員會討論過了幾次，你說現在沒有延役的可能，現在會不會再改呢？會不會有延役的討論？台電有延役的討論嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，依照現行的法令就是沒有辦法延役。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你們要不要延役？那先結果論再反推啊！要延役，什麼事情都好談，對不對！不要拿法來作依據，本席之所以將這個背景、數字告訴你，因為如果不改，我們接下來採購再生能源的經費編列會更高，你是不是又要拿我們人民開刀？"],["曾次長文生：再生能源的採購躉購費率的部分，其實臺灣算是在一定時間之內就……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要再告訴我這個，人民很痛苦了，你一漲價，光剛剛我們在經濟委員會，中油就要增加8億元，我們已經作成決議，這個8億元不能轉嫁到消費者，我們剛剛在經濟委員會作成決議，所以本席要請教，第一個議題，會不會有延役的考量？要不要請王總經理回答？你們有沒有這個考量？還是政治問題？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，我們現在面臨的問題是像核二跟核一就是燃料棒在燃料池拿不出來，光是這個問題就卡住了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人民如果聽到台電公司這樣的回答，真的會痛苦死啊！因為本席剛剛告訴你，如果沒有其他的作為，你一年要增加多少錢，這些會轉嫁到民眾嗎？還是我們還要作一個決議，因為這樣不能再轉嫁到人民身上？這是政府耶！告訴你這些數字，你們好好去思考，因為如果依照我們剛剛所說的，能源成本會逐年下降，接下來你們編列的經費應該會下降很多啊！可是你告訴我們是從905億元增加到1,325億元啊！怎麼頭尾講的都不一樣呢？那人民要聽頭還是聽尾啊？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，我們講說燃料成本，因為其實再生能源是購電成本，那個沒有燃料，我講說燃料的部分，國際價格在變化，這一段是兩個事情，再生能源購電的成本狀況是它躉購費率確定的時候就確定了，我想這一題在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：董事長，進入情況，兩個不一樣的事情是有關聯的。"],["曾次長文生：已經跟國會有說明過、報告過。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：購電已經確認就確認，國際情勢確認就確認，那我們民眾怎麼辦？我把這個功課給你，核電退役後，你是不是會繼續再漲電價？這是我們不容許的，所以明天在大院裡頭，我們有提了一個案，在今年度不能再漲，我希望行政部門也要支持我們，藍白綠我相信所有的委員都會顧民心，讓這個國家還能持續運轉，好不好！我把這個功課給你，你好好去思考，詳細書面資料給本席，是否會繼續漲電價，請你書面資料給本席。","接下來本席想請教央行和主計長。"],["主席：請楊總裁與朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：朱主計長和央行楊總裁，請教兩位，今天的報告，電價漲會不會影響到物價？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們兩個的報告都有講會影響，有些微的影響。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會影響，那央行？你升息了，電價漲了，會不會影響物價漲？"],["楊總裁金龍：電價漲，物價會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們也升息了，升息半碼。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們從1.89%……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那物價會不會漲？下個月即將開始，會不會漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，按照趨勢的話，物價……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我在請教央行總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的預測是第一季跟第二季物價都還是會超過2%。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長你聽到了，誠如剛剛央行總裁所說的，今年度4月份開始會調漲11%到15%的電價，也認為會直接影響到我們的物價漲及通膨，所以在這樣的情況之下，本席想要請教兩位，首先請教楊總裁，這次這樣的情況，未來我們要怎麼辦？主計總處跟你升息都告訴我們會以照顧人民與維持物價穩定為優先，你們有優先嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：有啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼優先？繼續升息叫優先？"],["楊總裁金龍：以目前我們的預測，我們的物價在今年會持續往下的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：物價會緩下來？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼原因？你有什麼妙方，跟經濟部一樣，叫我們什麼時間才可以烤麵包，還可以省4萬元！"],["楊總裁金龍：會，還是會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會！我的眼睛瞪大了！"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛我也跟委員報告，我們第一季、第二季物價會2%以上，但是第三季會接近2%，第四季會2%以下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼理由？請告訴我。"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，第一，服務類的價格會慢慢下來，委員我給你一個數據。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，主席已經站起來了，你把你的論點詳細書面資料給本席。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我要告訴你，你所說的是正常狀況，我們現在加入很多非正常的、不可抗的因素在裡面，如果照你說一、二季會2%以上，第三季就會開始緩下，這都有錄音錄影，要怎麼辦？我告訴你，漲了就退不回來，我們要不要賭一碗什麼？排骨麵嗎？賭一碗排骨麵！央行總裁說第三季我們的物價會下降。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：難怪有聲音說9月份電價還要漲。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在3月份的時候做這樣的預測，但是資訊會慢慢的進來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說第三季我們的物價會下降。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是！我們賭一碗排骨麵，臺中的，最有名的排骨麵。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，這個是以目前的情況來估測，但是我們在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前的情況！現在我們預測4月中就開始電價漲了。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我們在6月份的時候會再重新估測。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在回復6月，但我還是要跟你賭這一碗臺中的排骨麵。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們6月份會再做估測。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你出錢，我帶你去吃，你絕對會輸的，如果以你現在的方向。所以最後一句話，主計長，所有的薪資，不管服務業、什麼業，三萬多、五萬多，尤其在工業和服務的薪資破八萬，你在計算的時候，工業的納進，應該是最有參考值吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，外界說八萬多為什麼這麼高，是因為1月份的時候有些企業都已經發年終獎金，所以我們這邊是總薪資，經常性薪資……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你的計算，你是主計總處，你竟然告訴我們是這樣的原因，你把它加入這個裡面作平均值，這樣對人民不公平，還是一樣啊！用來粉飾太平的，莫名其妙的圖卡啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：我們沒有粉飾太平，我們主計總處沒有做圖卡，因為我們有公布總薪資，也有公布經常性薪資，經常性薪資只有四萬六千多元。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我告訴你啦！薪資調漲跟較高的薪資是集中在某特定的產業的小部分，所以以後不要這樣子做，這樣子做是對人民不公平的，好不好。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們務實來做，好不好。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：楊總裁，我們兩個本家，臺中的排骨麵很好吃，如果3月份的物價真的降，我出錢請你吃，我們來賭這一把，我希望大家把問題提出，如果3月份還是沒降，你出錢，我帶你去我們臺中吃排骨麵。"],["主席：下一位請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","郭國文","賴惠員","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","王世堅","鄭天財Sra 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請台電 台電公司"},{"start":10.459,"end":32.168,"text":"我們台電公開的資訊說核電今年度每度成本僅剩下1.1元還遠低於燃氣的3.2元再生能源的5元那現在我們兩部核能機組跟當時的六部來比我們會少掉多少億度電呢"},{"start":33.803,"end":36.845,"text":"我告訴你會少掉了250億度電那如果以綠電全面的來替代你光光你的燃料支出就要將近1000億"},{"start":57.816,"end":82.066,"text":"那所以呢你即使以燃氣來取代你台電也要增加500多億500多億這個是在你們官方的網站告訴我們的所以本期請教請教董事長也是次長喔台電去年你花了905億來購這個再生能源嘛那你今年我們看到你的預算是編列1325億你增加了420億"},{"start":86.528,"end":111.71,"text":"但是核電這兩年將退役完畢因為我們在經濟委員會討論過了幾次你說現在沒有研議的可能那現在會不會再改呢?會不會有研議的討論?核電有研議的討論嗎?根委員報告就是我們現在依照現行的法令就是沒有辦法研議啊那沒有辦法研議好你們要不要研議?"},{"start":113.103,"end":134.508,"text":"不要先結果論再反推啊 要研議什麼事情都好談 對不對 不要拿法來做依據我本席之所以將這個背景數字告訴你因為我們接下來採購如果不改 我們接下來採購的財政人員的經費邊內你會更高 那你更高你是不是又要拿我們人民開刀"},{"start":135.228,"end":152.721,"text":"那個再生能源的採購等購費率的部分其實台灣算是在一定時間之內就不要再告訴我這個人民很痛苦了你一漲價你一漲價光光剛剛我們在經濟委員會中油都要增加8億我們已經做成決議這個8億不能轉嫁到我們的消費者我們剛剛在經濟委員會做成決議"},{"start":161.784,"end":190.74,"text":"所以本期要請教第一個議題會不會有研議的考量王總經理要不要請王總經理回答你們有沒有這個考量還是政治問題報告委員我們現在面臨的問題是像核二跟核一就是它的燃料棒在燃料池裡面拿不出來所以光這個問題就卡住了人民如果聽到我們台電公司這樣的回答真的會痛苦死"},{"start":192.452,"end":208.654,"text":"因為本席剛剛告訴你如果沒有其他的作為你一年要增加多少錢那這些會轉嫁到我們民眾嗎還是我們還要做一個決議因為這樣子不能再轉嫁到我們的人民身上"},{"start":210.209,"end":232.598,"text":"這是政府欸這是政府告訴你這些數字你們好好去思考因為如果依照我們剛剛所說的那麼能源成本會逐年下降那接下來的經費你們的編列應該會下降很多啊可是你告訴我們的是從905億你要增加到多少增加到1325億啊"},{"start":235.359,"end":260.017,"text":"那怎麼頭尾講的都不一樣呢?那人民要聽頭還是聽尾啊?那個我跟委員報告就是我們講說燃料成本因為其實再生能源那個是購電成本那個沒有燃料我想說燃料的部分國際價格在變化這一段這是兩個事情那購電的成本再生能源購電的成本的狀況是他董國飛確定的時候就確定進入情況"},{"start":263.859,"end":269.122,"text":"兩個不一樣的事情他是有關聯的那購電已經確認就確認國際情勢確認就確認那我們民眾怎麼辦我把這個功課給你我把這個功課給你核電退後你是不是會繼續再漲電價"},{"start":281.509,"end":309.138,"text":"這個是我們不容許的所以明天在大院裡頭我們有提了一個案不能再漲在今年度我希望行政部門也要支持我們藍白綠我相信所有的委員都會顧民心的啦讓這個國家還可以持續在運轉啦好不好我把這個功課給你你好好去思考相信書面資料給本席是否會繼續漲電價請你書面資料給本席本席想請教央行跟主計長"},{"start":311.84,"end":328.806,"text":"請楊總裁朱主計長主席長跟央行楊總裁今天的報告電價漲會不會影響到物價請教兩位主席長會不會影響我們兩個的報告都有講說會影響那央行你升息了還有電價漲了會不會影響"},{"start":339.289,"end":344.012,"text":"對就是說那個電價漲那物價呢會沒有升息了嗎升息辦嘛是我們從一點報告下個月即將開始會不會漲"},{"start":357.029,"end":367.716,"text":"我再請教央行總裁我們本家我們的預測呢是第一季跟第二季呢我們的物價都還是會超過2%會超過齁主席長你聽到了齁那就正如剛剛央行總裁所說的"},{"start":374.381,"end":398.385,"text":"今年度4月份開始他會調漲11%到15%的電價那也認為會直接影響到我們的物價漲以及通膨所以在這樣的一個情況之下本席想要請教兩位也就首先請教楊總裁這一次的這樣的情況那未來我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":400.168,"end":428.321,"text":"主計總處跟您都告訴我們你升息跟他都告訴我們說你們會以照顧人民與維持物價穩定為優先你們有優先嗎有啊有啊怎麼優先繼續升息照優先不過我跟委員報告以目前我們的預測我們的物價是在今年是會持續的會往下的"},{"start":429.301,"end":431.342,"text":"市協會往下的,去年呢是... 物價會緩下來?"},{"start":431.342,"end":432.062,"text":"什麼原因啊?你有什麼妙方?"},{"start":432.062,"end":433.162,"text":"跟經濟部一樣叫我們什麼時間才可以烤麵包?"},{"start":433.162,"end":433.302,"text":"還可以省4萬塊?"},{"start":433.302,"end":433.502,"text":"是啊,會啦!會!"},{"start":433.502,"end":434.003,"text":"還是會啦!"},{"start":445.026,"end":447.487,"text":"第3屆第4屆第3屆會接近2第4屆會2%以下什麼理由請告訴我基本上呢我們也就是說第一個他的那個什麼那個"},{"start":468.847,"end":482.844,"text":"國內的一個價格會慢慢的下來。委員我給你一個數據。總裁沒關係為主席站起來你把你的論點詳細數据交給本席。但是我要告訴你你所說的是正常狀況。"},{"start":484.335,"end":503.474,"text":"我們現在加注了很多非正常的不可抗的因素加在裡面如果照你說一二季會up4以上第三季就會開始緩下 這都有錄音錄音我告訴你 漲了就退不回來我們要不要賭一碗什麼"},{"start":508.884,"end":533.322,"text":"讀一碗排骨麵央行總裁說第三季我們的物價會下降我跟委員報告難怪有聲音說九月份電價還要漲第一季我們在三月份的時候做這樣的預測但是資訊會慢慢的進來你說的第三季我們的物價會下降我跟委員報告是不是讀一碗排骨麵"},{"start":534.663,"end":547.711,"text":"台中的最有名的我跟委員報告就是說物價我們現在就說第一季第二季這個就是說是以目前的情況來估測目前的情況現在我們預測4月中就開始電價漲了啦"},{"start":553.715,"end":572.449,"text":"但是我們在6月份的時候呢我們會再重新再估測你現在回復6月份但是我還是要跟你賭這一碗台中的排骨麵我們6月份我們會再做這個啦你出錢我帶你去吃你絕對輸的啦如果以你現在的這個方向所以最後一句話朱記長"},{"start":573.735,"end":589.111,"text":"你所有的薪資不管你服務業什麼業3萬多5萬多工業服務業尤其在工業跟服務的薪資破8萬的這個方式你在計算的時候工業的這個納進應該是最有參考值的"},{"start":593.395,"end":608.664,"text":"那個跟委員報告他在外界說這個八萬多為什麼那麼高是因為一月份的時候有些企業是都已經花有花年終獎金所以我們這邊是總薪資所以你的計算你是主計總處你竟然告訴我們是這樣的原因你把它加入在這裡面做平均值這樣對人民不公平吧還是一樣啊要來一個粉飾太平的啊莫名其妙的圖卡"},{"start":621.852,"end":644.713,"text":"我們沒有說粉色太平洋我們主計總是沒有做主管因為我們也公佈總薪資也有公佈經常性薪資經常性薪資只有4萬所以我告訴你啦薪資調漲了跟較高的薪資是集中在某特定的產業的部分小部分所以以後不要這樣子做啦這樣子做對人民是不公平的啦"},{"start":645.213,"end":671.63,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":673.885,"end":674.045,"text":"蘇清泉"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}