{"error":false,"id":["150534"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150534,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150534","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T12:36:18+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T12:43:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5e09e6459a9470658a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a608299f9cc5a62a845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:36:18 - 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Tahovecahe委員：預估什麼時候可以納入？"],["蔡署長玲儀：這個程序必須要經過各界意見來討論，因為大家也會擔心……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為這些程序，你們也走過，所以才會公布十三類143項啊！"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，因為大家會關心這些方法學去做了以後，是不是會對環境、生態有其他的影響……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以您認為既有林、竹林、森林，改進農業土地會有影響？"],["蔡署長玲儀：因為他要去計算這個方法會取得的這個減碳量，然後未來怎麼去監測……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以就是沒有辦法預估什麼時候可以上路？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，我們會跟農業部密切的討論……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，沒關係，到時候再一併給我報告，好不好？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。為什麼我如此重視自然碳匯，尤其是森林？因為我們看到國發會2050淨零排放規劃有提到森林碳匯，可以吸收22.5百萬噸；像這種工業碳匯換燈管的可以吸收40.2百萬噸。另外，我們從全球自願碳抵換的市場交易量可以很明顯看到，最大宗的還是林業跟土地的利用，這是全球的資料。我現在想要說的是，我們的碳交所也在去年揭牌了，環境部那個時候也宣稱定出的碳交易對象，將侷限有需求法人才能交易，排除自然人，理由是不容像股票有炒作空間。雖然如此，有很多的碳權股，我們看這個表格，像植林碳權股，永豐餘、華紙等等；也有碳捕捉技術股，台泥等等；綠能發電股，元晶等等；碳盤查股，這些都有。所以我要說的是，其實我們的氣候變遷因應法，部長，我們為的是環境嘛！我也承認不是創造經濟利益，對不對？好，但是我想說，你禁止了自然人進入交易市場，就能有效防止炒作嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我想這個國際上也是這樣在做，就是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我直接講我的想法，因為時間有限。"],["薛部長富盛：好，給我們參考，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是說我們可以預期原住民會更陷入危機！我特別要談的就是土地會更流失，這些企業為了最大的吸碳量，那些新植林他會去選擇單一樹種，你應該很明白，破壞生物多樣性！最慘的是原住民到時候就是去當澆水、砍草的，又要在自己的土地當僱工。","我們看氣候變遷因應法第五條，我唸第八項「為推動自然碳匯，政府應與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳匯，該區域內新增碳匯之相關權益應與原住民族共享，涉及原住民族土地開發、利用或限制，應與當地原住民族諮商，並取得其同意。」我們在談公正轉型，全球談氣候變遷都在談公正轉型。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我剛剛講的那個會不會落入？會，因為確實有很多未取得碳匯的，已經在圈地買地。我請部長看一下，這是很諷刺的，原住民傳統領域126萬公頃的話，我們按照目前的抓碳量，市價972億；原住民族保留地17萬公頃的話價值是131億；私有保留地7萬公頃的話市價是54億。但是我想說原住民為地球這麼努力，可是禁伐補償金每年3萬，把剛才我講的這個用抓探量、國際碳權交易的價格，可以折合每一年1公頃碳權是8萬元，而我們的禁伐補償是一年1公頃3萬元。","所以我要特別請部長幫個忙，您是學者出身，請環境部會同原民會於1個月內就碳權交易及碳費收益，提出原住民族權益維護及促進報告。第一個，我希望鼓勵、輔導原住民自然人或法人參與碳權交易市場。其次，針對原住民土地限制措施（如禁伐補償、國土保育地區、水資源這些），給予符合市價之補償或回饋，訂定一個符合市場的標準。第三，研議就企業或法人利用原住民土地取得碳匯之諮商同意，比照礦業法，他們有訂定一個諮商同意的指引。好不好？部長。"],["薛部長富盛：跟伍委員報告，這個我們來研究……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，1個月內？給我一個報告。"],["薛部長富盛：給伍委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：看看他們的情況怎麼樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝伍委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.982218750000001,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.42096875,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.95096875,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.16846875,"end":39.197843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.46721875,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.517843750000004,"end":43.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.77096875,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.85534375,"end":51.094718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.28034375,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.77784375,"end":73.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.39846875,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.90784375000001,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.13909375,"end":94.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.66596875,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.65721875000001,"end":97.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.02409375,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.67784375000001,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.31471875000001,"end":102.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.41159375000001,"end":109.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.96346875,"end":111.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.34284375,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.21596875,"end":113.11034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.26221875,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.34221875,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.69659375,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.71346875,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.33659375,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.43784375000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.54659375,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":137.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.70596875,"end":136.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.70159375,"end":141.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.52784375000002,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.69534375,"end":151.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.68659375000001,"end":154.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.62284375000002,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.05721875,"end":163.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.52909375000002,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.82409375,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.38909375,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.92846875,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.30471875,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.29534375,"end":226.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.52721875,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.20596875,"end":235.85909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.58471875,"end":238.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.04846875,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.67471875,"end":257.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.39159375,"end":257.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.37034375,"end":263.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.53409375,"end":265.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.48721875,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.19096875,"end":276.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.16534375000003,"end":275.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.97096875,"end":276.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.93284375,"end":276.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.15221875000003,"end":278.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.29534375000003,"end":281.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.43409375000005,"end":284.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28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謝謝為什麼我如此重視自然碳會尤其是森林我們看到國發會這個2050淨零排放規劃他有提到森林碳會他可以吸收22.5百萬噸那像這種工業碳會換燈管這種的可以吸收40.2百萬噸那另外我們從全球自願碳底換的市場交易量可以看到很明顯"},{"start":198.36,"end":225.8,"text":"最大宗還是林業跟土地的利用這是全球的資料那我現在想要說就是我們去年碳交所也揭牌啦然後那個時候環境部也宣稱訂出的碳交易對象呢將侷限有需求法人才能交易排除自然人理由不容像股票有炒作空間那雖然如此呢我們也來看一下"},{"start":226.681,"end":235.318,"text":"有很多的什麼呢?碳權股我們看一下這個表格這個碳權股像這些植林碳權股"},{"start":237.637,"end":265.274,"text":"湧風魚、華紙等等也有碳捕捉技術股、台泥等等綠能發電股、原金等等、碳判查股都有所以我要說的是其實我們簽後變遷因應法部長我們為的是環境嘛我也承認不是創造經濟利益嘛對不對好但是我想說你禁止了自然人進入交易市場就能有效的防止炒作嗎"},{"start":266.779,"end":290.267,"text":"我想這個是國際上也是這樣在做了就是說好那部長我直接講我的想法因為時間有限給我們參考我是說我們可以預期原住民會陷入更危機我特別要談的就是土地會流失更流失這一些企業為了最大的吸碳量"},{"start":291.294,"end":295.155,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":314.76,"end":341.949,"text":"為了推動自然碳會政府應與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區內之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會之相關權益應與原住民族共享涉及原住民族土地開發、利用或限制應與當地原住民族諮商並取得其同意我們在談公正轉型全球談氣候變遷都在談公正轉型但是我剛剛講的那個會不會落入?會"},{"start":343.149,"end":354.867,"text":"因為確實是很多人未得取得碳費已經在圈地買地所以我請部長您看一下這是很諷刺的原住民傳統領域126萬公頃的話試駕我們按照目前的抓碳量"},{"start":359.309,"end":376.51,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":377.52,"end":391.06,"text":"可是我們看到我們的進法補償金每年3萬把剛才我講的這個用抓碳量國際碳權交易的價格它可以折合每一年一公頃碳權是8萬元"},{"start":392.962,"end":413.63,"text":"我們的淨法補償是一年一公頃3萬元所以我要特別請部長您幫個忙您是學者出身請環境部會同委員會一個月內就碳權交易跟碳費的收益提出原住民族權益維護及促進報告第一個我希望鼓勵輔導原住民的自然人或法人"},{"start":414.731,"end":438.989,"text":"參與碳權的交易市場。針對原住民的土地限制,像淨法補償這些、國土保育這些、水資源涵義這些,給予符合市價的補償或回饋,訂定一個符合市場的標準。第三,研議企業或法人利用原住民土地取得碳匯的諮商同意比照礦業法,他們有訂定一個諮商同意的指引。好不好?部長。"},{"start":440.17,"end":440.29,"text":"吳力華委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}