{"error":false,"id":["150536"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150536,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150536","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T12:42:50+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T12:51:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d52fa922a7f972706cedc5a8dea5ca6478f8ba9b0039caa7a61936c39b81b8ab135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:42:50 - 12:51:46","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司就電價大漲及央行升息對物價波動的影響進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1305,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時42分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["黃委員國昌：總裁好。其實我滿敬重總裁的專業，所以我的質詢不會花時間在請教總裁電價調漲物價會不會跟著調漲這麼基本的問題上，我想一般的百姓，從大家每一個人的生活經驗都知道答案是什麼，在國會殿堂討論這麼基本的問題其實有一點……當然，也是因為行政部門硬凹，所以很多委員看不下去，所以一定要站出來以正視聽。我今天想要請教總裁的，其實我更關心的是我們的金融政策和房價兩個之間的互動關係，我向來的立場是金融政策我們希望把資金引導到實體經濟的發展，實體經濟的發展對國家、對社會、對一般人、對勞工才都有好處，實體的資金不應該被引導到炒作，特別是炒作房地產。總裁，我相信你認同吧！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：我們具體來看，2020年央行警告不動產的貸款占整個銀行總放款的比率35.8%已經太高了，現在是2024嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：現在是往上還是往下？"],["楊總裁金龍：現在是37.3%。"],["黃委員國昌：所以往上嘛！比你2020年提出警訊的時候還要更高嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，高了百分之一點多。"],["黃委員國昌：整個所造成的影響，我帶總裁看2016年到2023年，這是建築貸款，建築貸款從2016年的一兆六千多億元，到現在已經3兆2,258億元，總裁會不會認為就有關於金融機構在放款上一直不斷的集中在建築業貸款，不是一個健康的現象？"],["楊總裁金龍：以目前來看的話37.4%，因為2月份是37.3%，如果跟三十五點多是提高一點，不過到目前為止，我覺得還可以。"],["黃委員國昌：你們央行的報告其實我都很仔細拜讀，因為央行做出來的比較專業，當你純粹在看percentage的時候，你用year on year來看年度變化率的時候，我老實跟總裁報告，從統計的觀點，隱藏了非常多的故事，你以實際總量上面來看，這個曲線圖就非常清楚知道問題有多嚴重，我這才只是用銀行建築貸款，如果我們進一步加上購屋、整個房地產放款的話，那個數字更是驚人。從之前每個月增加286億元，到後來最近這幾年月增717億元，中間有一個關鍵的時間點是2018年的8月，2018年8月以前月增286億元，2018年8月以後到現在，月增是717億元，這個數字很可怕，每個月增加的金額，總裁知不知道2018年8月發生什麼事情，造成這麼劇烈的變化？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想你要講的大概是中美貿易衝突。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，No，沒有關係，我不要考總裁，我沒有資格考總裁，這樣對你比較不敬，我直接切入正題，銀行法第七十二條之二，這個可以說是銀行不動產放款的天條，第七十二條之二立法規範的意旨是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：不要讓資源太集中在房地產。"],["黃委員國昌：它要求的是什麼？不可以超過30%嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：但是法律下面有一些但書，如果你要去買房子的話，購屋貸款、住宅的貸款、國宅的貸款，它把它放但書，它在30%的天花板開了一個小小的後門，為了要便利購屋族，這是法律明定的。我今天要請教總裁的問題是什麼，在2018年8月31日的時候，我們的金管會竟然透過行政命令的方式大幅鬆綁銀行法第七十二條之二，大開後門，裡面列了一堆例外的狀況，連購置廠房這種都全部排除在30%上限、天條的天花板的範圍之外，對於金管會這樣子的政策，央行贊成嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，金管會的政策，我們還是尊重他們的判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：它們處理的是micro，央行要處理的是macro，你要看整體的，我今天之所以直接挑這個題目來請教央行的總裁，金管會在做這個錯誤的政策決定時，在總體上面所產生的影響，我為什麼花那麼多的時間把這些數字全都拼湊起來，把趨勢很清楚的跟總裁報告。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝你。"],["黃委員國昌：金管會他們透過法律未必有授權給它的權力去開了這個後門的時候，對於整體金融放款以及整體經濟，乃至於實體經濟的發展，以及助長不動產炒作這樣的歪風時，我希望央行有的時候要表現你們的態度，要告訴金管會說，你們怎麼可以這樣做呢！房價已經不斷飆升了，不動產放款數額比率不斷的在升高了，你們還一直在開後門，這樣對嗎？總裁，你覺得我講的有沒有道理？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，有道理啦！"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！我得到總裁的肯定，非常的高興。"],["楊總裁金龍：我的意思也就是說委員的建議也是好的，金管會是個體，我們是總體，基於總體的職責，有些時候我們也要跟金管會來溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：後面雖然沒有委員了，但總裁你放心，我不會在這邊暢所欲言半小時，讓你沒有辦法回去休息，我最後只show一個，在2018年開了這個大後門以後，它所增加的整體不動產放款占全體放款的比率高達44%，我們剛才那個曲線爬升很高的，全部都進入了不動產放款當中，所以為什麼過去這8年房價不斷攀升，讓這麼多的錢跑到不動產市場當中助長炒作，這一定要非常非常嚴肅面對的問題。我最後只有一個請求，央行在面對這種總體的金融政策時，有的時候要幫我們臺灣的年輕人、要幫我們臺灣的下一代說幾句話，因為央行的一個政策決定事實上可以產生的影響是非常非常大的，總裁你能不能夠承諾我，央行一定會持續、非常密切的關注，我們不應該讓那麼多的游資、讓那麼多銀行金融的放款跑到不動產，造成房價不斷的攀升？"],["楊總裁金龍：對於委員的建議，我們事實上是密切觀察、密切注意，謝謝你的建議。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請游顥、游顥、游顥，游委員不在。","請李柏毅、李柏毅、李柏毅，李委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭委員不在。","今日登記發言委員，均已詢答完畢。一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。三、委員顏寬恒、陳玉珍、徐巧芯、吳春城、葉元之所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。四、本次會議議程已進行完畢，如果有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","郭國文","賴惠員","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","王世堅","鄭天財Sra 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on Year去看年度的變化率的時候我老實跟總裁報告從統計的觀點隱藏了非常多的故事你以實際上面它總量上面來看這個曲線圖就非常清楚的知道問題有多嚴重"},{"start":194.002,"end":207.837,"text":"我這個孩子是用銀行建築貸款喔如果我們進一步的再加上購入整個房地產放款的話那個數字是什麼更是驚人喔從之前每個月"},{"start":210.525,"end":218.472,"text":"286億是增加的喔到後來最近這幾年月增了717億中間有一個關鍵的時間點是2018年的8月2018年8月以前月增是286億2018年8月以後到現在月增是717億這個數字很可怕喔"},{"start":231.283,"end":239.254,"text":"每個月增加的金額總裁您知不知道2018年8月的時候發生了什麼事情造成這麼劇烈的變化"},{"start":241.388,"end":265.481,"text":"我想就是說您要講的大概就是說是講那個中美貿易衝突不是沒有關係我不要考總裁我沒有資格考總裁這樣對你比較不濟我直接切入正題銀行法72條之二這個可以說是銀行不動場放款的天條嘛72條之二它立法規範的意旨是什麼"},{"start":266.933,"end":286.89,"text":"對也就是說要不要讓這個資源呢太集中在房地產他要求的是什麼不可以超過百分之三十嗎但是什麼他下面法律有一些但書嗎如果你要去買房子的話購屋貸款住宅的貸款國宅的貸款他把它放但書"},{"start":288.251,"end":309.4,"text":"放袋書這個是在30%的天花板他開了一個小小的後門為了要便利購物主這是法律明定的但我今天要請教總裁的問題是什麼在2018年8月31號的時候我們的金管會竟然透過行政命令的方式大幅鬆綁銀行法72條之二大開後門"},{"start":313.846,"end":338.839,"text":"裡面列了一堆什麼?裡面列了一堆例外的狀況連購置廠房喔連購置廠房這種全部都把它排除在30%上限天條的天花板的範圍之外對於金管會這樣子的政策央行贊成嗎?我基本上金管會的一個政策我們也是還是尊重他們的判斷"},{"start":340.319,"end":368.256,"text":"他們處理是micro的嘛央行要處理的是macro的嘛你要看整體的嘛但我今天之所以直接挑這個題目來請教央行的總裁是今天晚會他們在做這一個錯誤的政策決定的時候在總體上面所產生的影響我為什麼花那麼多的時間把這些數字全部拼湊起來把趨勢很清楚的跟總裁報告謝謝你"},{"start":370.157,"end":391.633,"text":"有時候金管會他們透過法律未必有授權給他們的權利去開了這個後門的時候對於整體金融放款以及整體經濟乃至於實體經濟的發展以及助長不動產炒作這樣子歪風的時候我希望央行有的時候要表現你們的態度"},{"start":392.912,"end":405.699,"text":"要表現你們的態度啊那告訴金管會說你們怎麼會這樣做呢房價已經不斷的在飆升了不動場放款數額比例不斷的在升高了你們還一直在開後門這樣對嗎"},{"start":409.25,"end":429.246,"text":"總裁,您覺得我講的有沒有道理?是啦,有道理啦!有嘛!我得到總裁的肯定,非常的高威信。不過我的意思也就是說,委員的一個建議也是好的。也就是說,金管會是個體,我們是總體。那基於總體的一個職者呢,有些時候呢,我們也要跟金管會來溝通。"},{"start":430.427,"end":440.98,"text":"雖然後面沒有委員了啦但總裁你放心我不會在這邊暢所欲言半小時讓你沒有辦法回去休息我最後只秀一個我最後只秀一個"},{"start":443.271,"end":465.851,"text":"在2018年開了這個大後門了以後他所增加的整體的不動產的放款佔全體放款的比例高達44%我們剛剛那個曲線爬升很高的全部都進入了什麼不動產放款當中所以過去這幾年為什麼過去這八年房價不斷的攀升"},{"start":467.494,"end":491.623,"text":"讓這麼多的錢跑到不動產的市場當中助長炒作這一定是要非常嚴肅啊非常非常嚴肅啊面對的問題我最後只有一個請求啦就是說央行在面對這一種總體的金融政策的時候有的時候要幫我們台灣的年輕人要幫我們台灣的下一代說幾句話"},{"start":492.463,"end":513.185,"text":"因為央行的一個政策決定事實上它可以產生的影響是非常非常大的總裁你能不能承諾我說央行一定會持續非常密切的關注說我們不應該讓那麼多的油資讓那麼多銀行金融的放款跑到不動產"},{"start":514.486,"end":516.087,"text":"造成了房價不斷的攀升"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}