{"error":false,"id":["150546"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150546,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150546","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T13:06:43+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T13:21:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5d69f45ec0008a2a5a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a66fbd5d4b87b3fb0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:06:43 - 13:21:31","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1361,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時6分）謝謝主席，麻煩請薛部長跟蔡署長。"],["主席：薛部長、蔡署長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。最近這個碳費徵收的問題受到社會各界的關注，次長跟蔡署長最近在2月24號有參加一場由臺大風險中心針對碳費徵收所舉辦的研討會，而且參加人數大爆滿，對不對？你不知道有沒有大爆滿。"],["薛部長富盛：我沒有參加，因為我們好像是次長跟署長參加，不過應該是很熱門的題目。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，你應該掌握一下狀況，因為聽說不但坐無虛席，還坐到走道旁邊的階梯去。從參加的人數顯示，未來碳費的徵收要怎麼收、收多少，實在是牽動企業跟環團的敏感神經，而且攸關我國國家的重大政策跟經濟發展的國際競爭力，所以部長，你覺得這個碳費的徵收應該要多一點公平性、科學性，還是要多一點政治性跟選擇性呢？"],["薛部長富盛：答案當然很清楚，一定是公平性跟科學性。"],["陳委員瑩：這用肚臍想也知道。你們3月15日發布的新聞稿指出，審議委員提出費率審議應該以充分科學證據及國際經驗為基礎，在對相關資訊有充分瞭解下，再進行費率的審議討論。我想審議委員這樣講，可見他就是沒有看到你們有充分的科學證據，也沒有看到你們向國際取經的意願，才會點出這個很嚴重的不足。如果應該多一點公平性跟科學性，那我就先請教一下事務官層級的蔡署長。署長，這個充滿爭議的2.5萬噸以下免徵是否維持？您當時的回應是聽取研討會各界建議之後會再審慎思考，當初為什麼一開始有這個2.5萬噸免徵的規劃，你的依據是什麼？這個應該是一個屬於比較科學性、公平性的問題，不然為什麼不是2萬噸，也不是3萬噸的數據？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，當時環境部會提出2.5萬噸以下不計入碳費的徵收，最主要是考慮到我們從開始做溫室氣體的盤查就是以2.5萬噸為門檻，在經過部內的討論之後我們才規劃2.5萬噸免徵。"],["陳委員瑩：對，我就問你2.5萬這個數據是怎麼來的？"],["蔡署長玲儀：這個就是因為我們考慮到盤查的門檻是2.5萬噸，國際間在實施排放量計算的時候，通常也會以2.5萬噸來作為門檻。"],["陳委員瑩：好，從2月24日研討會到現在，氣候署審慎思考之後，有沒有腹案或其他結論？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，各界當然對於這個2.5萬噸有不同的期待跟想法，目前我們在規劃這個碳費收費辦法的時候，也會參考其他國家的作法，包括轉型過渡期間碳洩漏的相關思考，所以我們會綜合，不會全部通通都適用2.5萬噸免徵。"],["陳委員瑩：所以過了一個月……"],["蔡署長玲儀：現在正在做規劃跟調整當中。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你是怎麼調？是上調還是下調？"],["蔡署長玲儀：就是不會所有被徵收的對象都有2.5萬噸免徵的適用，不同的行業別會有不同的考量。"],["陳委員瑩：所以接下來大家又要緊張到底是哪些行業，是這樣、不是這樣？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們正在碳費徵收辦法裡面做規範。"],["陳委員瑩：這場會議有一個被提出的問題，就是業界普遍認為碳費徵收草案好像越修越複雜，大家都在觀望，選擇低碳轉型似乎是一個遙不可及的目標，因為大家都不知道他們現在的技術可不可以達到、轉型的成本會不會過高，所以大家就靜觀其變，以不變應萬變，然後到最後就什麼都沒變。他沒變，也不敢轉型，所以有可能變成你們收了一堆碳費，結果排碳卻沒有減少。未來環境部可能收了上百億的碳費……"],["薛部長富盛：沒有啦，還沒收到。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！我是說未來，未來可能收了上百億的碳費，然後你們就點碳成金，成了你們的大金庫。請問收了這麼多的費用，在未來你們到底有什麼樣的規劃？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，事實上氣候法裡面都寫得非常清楚，將來即使是環境部負責這個基金，它也是各部會都有委員在裡面，要怎麼使用，必須根據氣候法的十三項來進行，所以它是有一個法制的基礎在那邊。我也跟委員報告，臺灣在追求2050淨零這一塊，對於碳費的徵收，雖然其他國家沒有採用，都是以碳稅，但事實上我們中長期目標也是碳稅，碳費只是一個過渡期，在這個過渡期，我們考量到臺灣整個產業的結構、我們過去在淨零排放這一塊推動的經驗，覺得現階段以碳費來實施，專款專用，讓業界可以直接去自主減量或者採用歐盟的SBT這個科學概念的方法，事實上是比較好的。"],["陳委員瑩：我給部長很完整的時間做一個完整的回答，我們也很高興聽到說，現在的碳費是一個過渡時期，未來會往碳稅的方向來走。"],["薛部長富盛：是，碳稅。"],["陳委員瑩：也很高興聽到會根據氣候法，未來這些費用、碳費的部分……"],["薛部長富盛：基金的使用、用途，也是朝這方面……"],["陳委員瑩：就是也會協助大家去做減碳的規劃。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。另外，施次長除了是環境部的次長以外，還是碳費審議會的首屆召集人。通常我們提到的時候應該會自己上來。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，有問題要請教施次長嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：我現在就講到他了。施次長在會議上有表示，溫室氣體盤查本身就是一個減量工具，環境部擬調降應盤查公告的排放門檻。這句話本席有點不太瞭解，你可不可以解釋為什麼盤查就可以減量？因為如果按照你這句話的解釋，溫室氣體盤查本身應該是一個收費工具才對啊？因為查完降了就不用收費了。"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，溫室氣體盤查是希望排放員先瞭解他的排放狀況，因為瞭解排放狀況，他比較能夠知道，譬如說我今天是哪一個燃料用的比較多，還是我今天是屬於用電比較多，所以當他可以透過盤查比較清楚地來確定排放量比較多的是哪邊時，他就可以從哪邊開始著手，所以……"],["陳委員瑩：對啊，但是你講的是溫室氣體盤查本身是一個減量工具，你查完了就減量了，那我就不用收費了嘛！還是是因為那天媒體擷取的報導有誤？你是不是這樣講？還是哪一家媒體害你，你要不要講清楚？"],["施次長文真：沒有、沒有，大家的報導其實很客觀，可能我當初說得不夠精準，我們是希望說……"],["陳委員瑩：不是，我跟你講，你講得不清楚，媒體卻很清楚的報導你講的，所以這個時候你就要跳出來趕快講清楚，不然我就會覺得是字面上這樣查完了就減量了，那大家都不用再收費啦！"],["施次長文真：因為減量工具確實是……"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣問其實是反映了盤查工具的客觀性跟公正性，難道我們盤查的越多就可以減量越多？如果是這樣子的話，會不會有盤查錯誤？次長，我就再借用你的話再問一下，我們將來要如何建立一套大家都可以接受而且可以幸福的盤查了就減量的工具呢？"],["施次長文真：首先跟委員報告，因為減量工具確實如委員所說，它大概就是屬於要用碳稅或者要用總量管制跟交易，所以我這樣的說法並不精準，謝謝委員提出。這個盤查的部分，其實目前國際上其他國家的作法都會是一個有點類似國際標準的框架來做盤查，就是來確認溫室氣體的排放量，所以這個盤查的工具依我國的規範，其實也是跟著國際規範來走，應該不會有錯誤的盤查工具，跟委員說明。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝，就是提醒你。"],["施次長文真：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：兩位應該可以先請回座，我繼續問部長。最後請問部長一個可能偏向政治性或選擇性的問題，為什麼即將開放的碳費可以抵歐盟的CBAM，而國內自願減量的碳權卻不行？想請教一下部長，這是真的嗎，還是沒有定案？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上在這一塊我們有兩種，一種是SBT，那一塊是歐盟在採用，就比較有可能被認可；但是自主減量是因為企業達不到SBT，即科學基礎的減量方法，所以他變成自己去設定自己的減量目標，說真的，這個就比較不符合歐盟的需求，這樣子被認可的可能性就會降低很多……"],["陳委員瑩：他沒辦法抵的話，那未來誰還願意自願減碳？"],["薛部長富盛：我們鼓勵企業採用SBT，但是人家的要求標準真的很高，所以我們等於又開了另外一條路徑，讓我們國內企業去提自主減量，然後再採用優惠的費率，但是優惠的費率會比你採用SBT的優惠費率稍微低一點，SBT的優惠費率會更高，折扣會更高。"],["陳委員瑩：好，部長，最後我要請教一個，謝謝召委給一點點時間，因為這個是很重要的問題，我把它問完。就是根據碳費相關的子法草案，環境部有規劃第一階段適用的三種抵碳方法，第一種國內的自願性減碳，包括有自願減量專案、抵換專案及先期專案。部長，你們到底對自己規劃的專案有沒有信心？有沒有辦法爭取抵充歐盟CBAM，還是說只是涉及到其他的因素？"],["薛部長富盛：給陳委員報告，這一塊我們持續來努力，其實這一塊不只是環境部的工作，環境部還是以碳費跟減碳這塊為主，而大家一直很關心以及陳委員關心的CBAM那一塊，事實上那跟經濟部的關係更密切，因為他產品要輸出到歐盟去，要接受人家……"],["陳委員瑩：這個是我的開場白，主要是減抵方法的第三種，指定目標跟自主減量計畫，也就是企業執行自主減量計畫，例如說，轉換低碳燃料、提升能效、使用再生能源等措施，而且達到指定目標者，可享優惠費率。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：可是就在前幾天，桃園市政府廢止了三家SRF再生能源產業工廠的入園同意函，這些工廠為了配合國家政策，先期已經投注了幾十億的經費，我請問部長，這樣的結果、這樣的處理是一個政治考量，還是一個科學根據？這樣的處理到底是誰打臉誰？第一，張善政打臉鄭文燦；第二，桃園市環保局打臉你們環境部；還是第三，張子敬打臉總統。部長，你如何看待這件事？"],["薛部長富盛：我想這件事情各個部會跟地方政府有各自的權限，桃園市政府使用自己的權限去做它的事情，我們當然尊重。事實上去年大家為了這件案子沸沸揚揚的時候，桃園市政府就應該出來採取動作了，不過當然現在採取動作，同樣我們還是尊重它的職權。"],["陳委員瑩：所以部長講到後來，你也是只能尊重，但是我告訴你，你們尊重歸尊重，尊重的結果可能就是在未來還有誰敢再配合國家政策做這樣的投資，你沒有好好回答的話，正好你前面講那麼多東西就好像在吹牛。","所以結論是，用碳費徵收而不是徵碳稅來減碳，我國是全世界第一個執行的國家，我相信環境部在未來會秉持專業妥善地規劃及處理。"],["薛部長富盛：會，是。"],["陳委員瑩：剛剛部長也講這個是階段性的過程，所以也希望你們早一點說清楚、講明白。"],["薛部長富盛：是，好。"],["陳委員瑩：該尊重的時候尊重，該有動作的時候就要有動作，該處理就要處理。"],["薛部長富盛：好，是。"],["陳委員瑩：不然就淪為吹牛而已。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00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那你們3月15發佈的新聞稿審議委員有提出來費率審議應該以這個充分科學證據及國際經驗為基礎在相對相關資訊有充分了解下再進行費率的審議討論我想審議委員這樣講可見他就是沒有看到你們有充分的科學證據也沒有看到你們向國際取經的意願才會點出這個很嚴重的不足"},{"start":115.298,"end":123.502,"text":"公平性與科學性事務觀層級蔡署長,充滿爭議的2.5萬噸以下免爭是否維持?您當時的回應是聽取研討會各界建議後會再審慎思考。"},{"start":136.731,"end":150.955,"text":"當初為什麼一開始有這個2.5萬噸免徵的規劃?你的依據是什麼?那這個應該是一個屬於比較科學性公平性的問題。那不然說為什麼不是2萬噸也不是3萬噸的數據?"},{"start":153.949,"end":161.878,"text":"跟委員報告這個當時環境部會提出來2.5萬噸以下不計入碳費的徵收最主要是考慮到我們從開始做溫室氣體的盤查就是以2.5萬噸為門檻"},{"start":167.011,"end":175.637,"text":"那麼在經過部內的討論之後我們才規劃就是說這個2.5萬噸有這個免費對然後我就問你說2.5萬這個數據是怎麼來的啊這個就是因為我們考慮到這個盤查的這個門檻是2.5萬噸那在國際間在實施這個排放量的這個計算的時候通常也會以2.5萬噸來做一個門檻好那"},{"start":192.688,"end":211.119,"text":"那現在是這樣,就是說研討會2024號嘛,到現在,那你們的這個切入署的這個審慎思考之後有沒有復案或者是其他結論?跟委員報告,因為各界當然對於這個2.5萬噸有不同的期待跟想法。"},{"start":211.499,"end":227.464,"text":"那目前我們在規劃這個碳費收費辦法的時候也會考慮到參考其他國家的做法有這個包括這個轉型過度的碳洩漏的這些相關的思考所以我們目前會綜合不會說全部通通都2.5萬噸免徵"},{"start":230.598,"end":252.086,"text":"所以過了一個月正在做這個規劃跟調整當中所以你是怎麼調上調還是下調就是不會說所有的這些被徵收對象都有這個2.5萬噸的免徵的這樣一個試用會有不同的行業別不同的考量所以接下來大家又要緊張到底是哪些行業"},{"start":253.326,"end":268.254,"text":"是這樣不是這樣我們正在這個碳費徵收辦法裡面在做規範好我想是這樣這場會議有一個被提出了問題就是業界普遍認為啦這個碳費徵收草案好像越修越複雜"},{"start":269.275,"end":270.716,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":290.355,"end":297.738,"text":"未來可能收了上百億的碳費,然後你們就點碳成金,成了你們的大金庫。請問說收了這麼多的費用,在未來你們到底有什麼樣的規劃?"},{"start":317.824,"end":343.609,"text":"呃 呃 呃 呃 呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":344.109,"end":361.996,"text":"臺灣在追求2050淨零這一塊事實上碳費的徵收雖然其他國家沒有採用都是以碳稅所以事實上我們長期的中長期的目標也是碳稅碳費只是一個過渡期所以過渡期當然我們考量到臺灣整個產業的結構我們過去在這個淨零排放這一塊"},{"start":367.538,"end":384.63,"text":"推動的經驗覺得現階段以碳費來實施專款專用讓業界可以直接去自主減量或者採用這個歐盟的SBT的這個科學概念的方法事實上是比較好的啦"},{"start":384.77,"end":409.724,"text":"好,我想我給那個部長很完整的時間做一個完整的回答我們也很高興聽到說現在的碳費是一個過渡時期未來會往碳稅的方向來走那也很高興聽到就是會根據這個氣候法的這個就是說未來這些費用、碳費的部分就是也會協助大家去做一個減碳的規劃吧"},{"start":413.327,"end":428.578,"text":"施次長除了是環境部的次長以外還是碳費審議會的首屆召集人通常我們提到的時候應該會自己上來對不對OK好"},{"start":430.697,"end":458.897,"text":"有問題要請教市市長現在就講到他了啊市長在會議上有表示溫室氣體盤查本身就是一個減量工具那環境部你調降應盤查公告的排放門檻這句話本席有點不太了解你可不可以解釋一下為什麼盤查就可以減量了因為本席認為說溫室氣體如果按照你這句話的解釋溫室氣體盤查本身應該是一個收費工具才對啊"},{"start":459.497,"end":480.594,"text":"因為查完這樣了就不用跟委員報告是說我們溫室氣體盤查是希望說排放源先瞭解他的排放狀況那因為瞭解排放狀況他比較能夠知道說比如說我今天是哪一個燃料用的比較多還是我今天是屬於用電比較多所以當他比較清楚透過盤查來確定排放量比較多的是"},{"start":481.038,"end":481.058,"text":"議員會議中"},{"start":498.65,"end":524.137,"text":"你是不是這樣講嗎?還是哪一家媒體害你?你要不要講清楚?沒有沒有沒有沒有,因為大家的報導其實就是很客觀啦那可能我當初說的不夠精準那你要,不是我跟你講喔你講的不清楚媒體卻很清楚的報導你講的所以這個時候你就要跳出來趕快講清楚不然我就會覺得查完了字面上這樣子查完了就減量了那大家都不用再收費啦因為減量工具確實是有優勢"},{"start":525.117,"end":549.676,"text":"因為我這樣問是說其實是反映了盤查工具的客觀性跟公正性因為難道我們盤查的越多就可以減量越多如果是這樣子的話會不會有盤查錯誤那次長我就再借用你的話再問一下我們將來要如何建立一套大家都可以接受而且可以幸福的盤查的就減量的工具呢"},{"start":550.951,"end":573.653,"text":"首先跟委員報告因為減量工具確實如委員所說的啦他大概就是屬於要用碳稅或者是要用總量管制跟交易所以我這樣說法並不是很精準謝謝委員提出那這個盤查的部分因為盤查其實目前國際上包括這個其他國家的做法都會是一個有點像是類似國際標準的這個框架"},{"start":574.725,"end":581.441,"text":"來做盤查就是來確認溫室氣體的排放量所以這個盤查的工具依我國的規範其實也是跟著國際規範來走"},{"start":583.526,"end":606.342,"text":"應該不會有這個錯誤的盤查工具跟委員說好謝謝就是提醒你那應該兩位可以先請回座部長部長我繼續問一下最後請問部長就是說一個可能偏向政治性或選擇性的問題為什麼即將開放的碳費可以抵歐盟的CBAN那國內的這個自願減量的碳權卻不行"},{"start":608.035,"end":635.897,"text":"想請教一下部長說這是真的嗎還是沒有定案因為事實上在這塊我們有兩種一種是SBT那一塊事實上歐盟在採用就比較有可能被這個認可但是自主減量是企業因為他達不到SBT就是科學基礎的減量方法他變成自己去設定自己的減量目標那這個就比較說真的不符合歐盟的那個需求"},{"start":636.718,"end":636.999,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":653.442,"end":668.303,"text":"所以又開另外一個等於說一條路徑讓我們國內的企業去提自主減量然後再採用優惠的匯率但是優惠的匯率會比你採用SBT的那個稅稍微低一點"},{"start":669.384,"end":673.706,"text":"衛生環境部部長有規劃第一階段適用的三種抵碳方法嗎?第一種國內的自願性減碳包括有自願減量專案、抵換專案還有掀起專案那部長"},{"start":696.334,"end":706.09,"text":"你們到底對自己規劃的專案有沒有信心?有沒有辦法爭取抵充歐盟的CBAN?還是說此事涉及到其他的因素?"},{"start":710.186,"end":731.437,"text":"該專案包括就是說這一塊我們實際來努力那這一塊因為不只是環境部的工作環境部還是以碳位跟減碳這塊為主事實上大家一直很關心以及陳委員關心的西半那一塊事實上跟經濟部關係更密切那因為他產品要輸出到這個歐盟去嘛那要接受人家"},{"start":735.16,"end":754.378,"text":"主要是說因為檢體的方法的第三種指定目標跟自主減量計畫也就是企業執行自主減量計畫例如說轉換低碳燃料提升能效使用再生能源等措施而且達到指定目標者可享優惠費率"},{"start":755.899,"end":782.864,"text":"可是呢就在前幾天桃園市政府廢止了三家SRF再生能源產業的三家工廠的這個入園同意函那這些工廠他們為了配合這個國家政策先期已經投注了幾十億的經費那我請問部長這樣子的結果這樣的處理是一個政治考量還是一個科學根據"},{"start":784.791,"end":811.293,"text":"那這樣的處理到底是誰打臉誰?第一張善政打臉鄭文燦第二桃園市環保局打臉你們環境部還是第三張子敬打臉總統?部長你如何看待這件事?我想這件事情各個部會跟地方政府有他各自的前線那桃園市政府他使用他自己的前線去做他的事情我們當然尊重了"},{"start":812.493,"end":826.808,"text":"事實上這個在去年大家為了這些案子會味洋洋的時候那時候桃園市政府就應該出來採取動作了不過當然這個現在採取動作他同樣還是我們尊重他的"},{"start":827.649,"end":846.845,"text":"所以部長講到後來你也是只能尊重啦但是我告訴你我們尊重歸尊重尊重的結果可能就是在未來還有誰就是說敢再配合國家政策再做這樣子的投資啊你沒有好好回答的話也剩下你前面講這麼多東西感覺在噴雞骨啊"},{"start":848.726,"end":875.121,"text":"所以我們結論用碳費徵收來減碳而不是徵碳稅本身就是我國全世界第一個執行的國家我相信說環境部在未來會秉持專業來妥善的規劃跟處理剛剛部長也講說這個是階段性的一個過程所以也希望你們早一點說清楚講明白該尊重的時候尊重"},{"start":876.542,"end":876.682,"text":"楊耀委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}