{"error":false,"id":["150547"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150547,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150547","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T13:21:36+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T13:31:48+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5b53cc84de11ec1a3a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6dd076cce470f63435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:21:36 - 13:31:48","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1425,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時21分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，我們很多稅收及公課都是寓禁於徵，碳費本身的概念大概也是這樣子，只是很多東西就是沒有辦法禁，我們希望透過碳費的徵收達到減碳的功能、目標。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員曜：第二次的碳費費率審議昨天已經召開了。"],["薛部長富盛：是，昨天下午。"],["楊委員曜：對，工總在前天就表示，課徵碳費當然會涉及產業競爭力及國際貿易公平的重要議題，為了保持產業的競爭力，同時審慎控制通膨及物價穩定，所以他們大概提了幾大建議。第一個問題請教部長，針對碳費費率的制定，工總的建議是先低後高，採分段滾動檢討，部長對於這樣子的主張……"],["薛部長富盛：我們循序漸進，這個是大家的共識，所謂的先低到底是多低，還有討論空間，大概是這個方向。絕對是循序，因為要跟世界、國際接軌，所以這個方向絕對清楚。"],["楊委員曜：對，我們現在在碳稅的部分應該算是走在還算滿前面的。"],["薛部長富盛：應該是怎麼樣？"],["楊委員曜：應該在國際上還算是走在……"],["薛部長富盛：我個人的感覺，當然，可能很多人不認同，我覺得我們並沒有落後國際……"],["楊委員曜：我們並沒有。"],["薛部長富盛：因為臺灣的情況也跟國外不一樣，特別臺灣事實上在某一個程度的靈活性，以及我們的產業以出口為導向、以製造業為主，我們應該納進去考量，不是一昧地從某一個角度。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["薛部長富盛：當然，我也很認同環團以臺灣永續的角度來思考問題，我們也要給環團一些肯定，我覺得應該是這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：對，團體有團體存在的目標及功能。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：行政部門當然必須要考慮得更全面。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員曜：譬如環團不用考慮到碳費……"],["薛部長富盛：出口競爭力這一段……"],["楊委員曜：出口競爭力，還有國內的通膨等等問題。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員曜：但行政機關必須如此，對不對？我們課稅以後必須要兼顧產業的國際競爭力，還有國際貿易的公平性及一致性。產業在國際上主要的競爭對手目前沒有徵收的碳費項目，我們徵收的項目多嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：說真的，我們徵收的對象事實上不高，因為我們是針對每年碳排放量2.5萬噸的才徵收。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["薛部長富盛：這樣子也才將近500家左右，合起來550個廠及家，所以這個比率來講，真的對一般包括中小企業或者民生的影響不是那麼大，但是我們要淨零，還是需要全民運動，大家一起做才有可能達成淨零的目標，包括節能減碳等等。"],["楊委員曜：我的意思是，我們徵收的項目跟國際接軌的情況有沒有很大的落差？"],["薛部長富盛：不會有太大落差，我們是以排碳量，當然先期是以製造及電力業者，未來會漸漸把門檻往下降，譬如今年是2.5萬噸，我們有考慮2年後這個應該要往下降，很可能更低的門檻。"],["楊委員曜：沒有落差是不是就表示我們出口的時候……因為臺灣多數的製造業其實還是以出口為導向。"],["薛部長富盛：對，以出口為導向。"],["楊委員曜：出口的時候比較不會有一頭牛剝兩層皮的情況，在國內課一次，然後譬如歐盟也……"],["薛部長富盛：不會。關於這一點，我們在國內繳交之後獲得憑證，事實上就可以到歐洲去抵減。"],["楊委員曜：對，這個一定要注意。"],["薛部長富盛：這一定要。"],["楊委員曜：要不然很快就會減損我們國際貿易上的競爭力。"],["薛部長富盛：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們會來做。"],["楊委員曜：這樣子的話就有牽扯到溫室氣體的檢驗機構，我們現在國內合格的有14家，根據歐盟碳邊境調整機制的規則，歐盟現在只承認歐盟碳交易機制認可驗證單位的報告，我們國內這14家有沒有得到歐盟的認可？"],["薛部長富盛：它事實上是一個國際機構認證，我們臺灣是TAF……"],["楊委員曜：我們這14家有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：對，全國認證基金會經過認證，它是國際通用的。"],["楊委員曜：有經過認證？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員曜：好。就像剛才講的，因為時間的關係，所以我就……因為台電也算是在第一階段就徵收碳費，可能也就會影響到民生一般的用電電費，這個就是我剛才講的團體跟行政機關之間的差異。"],["薛部長富盛：給委員報告，台電供應我們民生用電這一塊，事實上台電是不用繳碳費的，所以它沒有理由用這個藉口去增加電費。"],["楊委員曜：就是它供應給工廠的需要……"],["薛部長富盛：那個都會被扣除，沒有自己使用的都扣除，所以事實上……"],["楊委員曜：民生的不用？"],["薛部長富盛：對，現階段它不會轉嫁。"],["楊委員曜：好。部長，最後一個問題，澎湖是一個四面環海的縣，有很多漁民……"],["薛部長富盛：是，很多漁民。"],["楊委員曜：可是現在環境影響評估的項目都只有限於縣既有的資料蒐集，既有的資料蒐集其實沒有辦法很清楚地說服漁民對於海洋……譬如離岸風車，說服漁民來接受，希望部裡面能夠儘速地把開發行為環境影響評估作業準則的調查項目，再加入對於漁業的影響。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["楊委員曜：跟現有資料不同哦！他現在就是只有限定必須要提供現有的資料，而現有的資料大概各項的統計其實政府也有、相關單位也有，這個並沒有說服力。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["楊委員曜：應該要有這一項投資、這一項開發到底日後對於海洋所產生的影響在哪裡。"],["薛部長富盛：是，謝謝楊委員的提醒，因為澎湖畢竟是屬於離島。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["薛部長富盛：漁業對居民的生計是非常重要，它跟臺灣本島是比較不一樣，臺灣本島的各方面機會比較多，所以我非常認同楊委員剛剛提到的這個問題，就是說在澎湖周遭，其他離島也是一樣，在做開發的時候的確應該要多傾聽當地居民的聲音、當地地方政府的聲音，應該把……"],["楊委員曜：傾聽地方政府的聲音，然後也必須要做出對日後的影響。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我認同，因為他們基本上是靠海為生。"],["楊委員曜：我最後講一個觀念，三個離島縣的漁業都非常重要，可是三個離島縣都在推低碳島，所以我們也很希望能夠有綠能的發展，可以在離島縣發展得很好。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["楊委員曜：可是這兩者之間現在存有很大的疑慮，特別是漁民對於離岸風車設置以後，對於海洋生態的影響、魚蝦貝蟹的繁衍會有什麼影響？他們不知道，我看我們現在的環境影響評估裡並沒有這一項，請部裡面儘速把它納入。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝楊委員的建議。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員。本日會議詢答全部結束，沒有人提書面。","現在作以下決定跟決議：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者從其所定。","接下來我們進行討論事項總共四案，請一併宣讀。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.21596875,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.464718750000001,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.915968750000001,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.46346875,"end":24.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.10471875,"end":41.729093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.08346875,"end":43.416593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.32784375,"end":47.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.60159375,"end":47.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.77034375,"end":53.507843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.78721875,"end":48.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.368468750000005,"end":63.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.81034375,"end":61.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.860968750000005,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.12221875,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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tart":567.392,"end":584.999,"text":"三個離島線大概一頁都非常重要可是三個離島線都在推低碳島所以我們也很希望能夠有綠能的發展可以在離島線發展得很好而這兩者之間現在存有很大的"},{"start":585.959,"end":606.308,"text":"疑慮,特別是漁民對於離岸風車設置以後對於海洋生態的影響、漁蝦被蟹的繁衍會有什麼影響,他們不知道。那我看我們現在的環境影響評估裡面並沒有這一項,請部裡面儘速把它納入。好,謝謝楊委員的建議。好,謝謝楊要委員。那本日會議詢答"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}