{"error":false,"id":["150583"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150583,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150583","日期":"2024-03-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-28T10:00:17+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-28T10:12:18+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:01","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf7399d31c294ca6f1b83f090e56da198af8ba9b0039caa7a63f69a6de72969f305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:00:17 - 10:12:18","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案（報告事項）。【第18案，如經復議則不予處理】\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1035,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（10時）主席、各位官員，早安。請部長，還有署長。"],["主席：請薛部長，還有吳署長嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：對，吳署長，不好意思。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也是接著要問林淑芬委員剛剛問的，全國人民很關心，而且大家看到新聞會很難過，這些民眾只是為了健康而去素食餐廳吃飯，現在又有一個快訊，臺南有2個人，21號去吃的，2個人現在都送入急診室啊。剛剛林委員講得很好，非典型的症狀各位發公文到各大急診室了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，我們已經有發給各大醫院，要求他們注意有這種……"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊，臺北市在24、25號前往稽查，食藥署27號才開始稽查，……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，是26號。"],["陳委員菁徽：26號，對，你覺得這樣查得到東西嗎？24號、25號大家已經都把它收一收……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為查的東西不一樣，在臺北市，地方的話是因為有食物中毒，它有一個SOP，就是要去查人、廚師，還有環境，這些統統要去檢查，但這是一般食物中毒的SOP。而這一次我們是彙集後發現怎麼有越來越多的個案，我們知道這個案件並不單純，所以我們在26號就跟疾管署……因為本來這個大部分都是由食藥單位去處理，這一次的話，我們當時就會疾管署並且再找臺北市政府一起再去檢查。"],["陳委員菁徽：署長在新聞稿上講到，因為生物檢驗需要兩週嘛，所以我們兩週以後才會有結果，但是當天抽檢到的就是6、7種食材。請問經過這樣的事件，你們有嚴格要求他們要如何留下餘材嗎？因為你當天過去說他們都沒有餘材嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：這個本來都有規定啦，但是也要看情形，因為餐廳有時候沒有非常嚴格去follow這樣的規則啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：這樣你們做的比營養午餐……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦，它的生意就不好，你硬要叫他每一……"],["陳委員菁徽：因為，因為其實……"],["薛部長瑞元：那是一個一個炒出來的東西，並不是大鍋炒好後客人來了用分配的，他是每一個要去做，然後又要留樣，這個對業者……"],["陳委員菁徽：太困難了！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，太困難了。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以理解，但現在因為每天的個案一直在增加，而且這些人是非常非常無辜的，有人已經要捐肝給家人等等的，也有金融圈的高材生，所以希望我們能持續保持關注，然後持續檢討，謝謝署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個當然啦，但目前還是要確認到底是什麼東西引起的……"],["陳委員菁徽：是，署長，謝謝。","另外，在這次提出來的檢討報告中，部長認為北市府、新北市府及兒盟這三個單位沒有橫向溝通，但其實您就是大家長，您要制定規則，讓他們做好橫向溝通。你說兒福的出養必要性評估嚴謹度不足、出養媒合過程未納外部意見、社工人員缺乏足夠教育訓練。但是我們看到你們在104年12月18日提出來的修正辦法，明明第八條第一項第五款第二目及第八目分別規定了「收養人條件與收出養人評估及審查方式」及「其他與推動收出養媒合服務有關之內容」，這些都是你們委託的機關給你們看過程序，給你們審查過，然後你們核可的，它才可以執行這樣子的業務啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，這有兩個層次的問題，不一樣，一個是許可辦法，就是它有這些SOP我們就要給它許可。但是實際上的個案來講的話，就不是衛福部逐案去審查，這應該是地方政府處理……"],["陳委員菁徽：你有在裡面提到它欠缺表單等等，可是其實它的表單都是你們看過的。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有、沒有，它本來就要落實，有寫沒有落實啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：好，有寫但是沒有落實？好。你提到未來要強化保母的督導以及管理機制，政府要更嚴格規範保母資格，尤其是收出養還有全日託，頻率、安置訓練課程、較優的薪資待遇，請問這些東西會列在你上次提到的保母專法嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不一定會用專法啦，但是我們會往這方面去推，因為有些用計畫就可以了。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你們的方向呢？對於全日託保母的部分，你們的方向會跟一般的保母有什麼不同嗎？"],["簡署長慧娟：它是照顧安置。"],["薛部長瑞元：它是在照顧這些沒有家庭可以支持的小孩。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個如果沒有列入保母專法，你要放在哪裡？因為你上次特別講……"],["簡署長慧娟：在兒權法。"],["薛部長瑞元：在兒權法裡面就會有這個規定。"],["簡署長慧娟：跟委員報告，現在針對要運用保母這樣的資源來協助照顧這種需要家外安置的兒童，我們已經有一個處理原則，這個部分縣市政府應該要建一個pool，就是它以後要委託這些保母來照顧的時候，就要從這裡面來找……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是說收出養的保母要放在另外一個法條，然後一般的保母……"],["簡署長慧娟：不是法條，是安置，在委託安置裡面，兒權法裡面就有委託安置。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以它跟一般家長的日託的規範會不同？"],["簡署長慧娟：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，這邊有提到你們會強化脆弱家庭的子女接受安置，還有幼兒專責醫師制度，地方社政主管機關彙整名冊到衛生主管機關。我也想請問，從上次討論這個到現在，我們地方的衛生局收到各衛社政主管機關的名單了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：176個的名單我們都有了。"],["陳委員菁徽：專責醫師也都有了？"],["簡署長慧娟：出養人……"],["薛部長瑞元：出養的裡面，小於3歲的是176個……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是上次我們有提啊，脆弱家庭不只是收出養……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，後面也是要……"],["簡署長慧娟：名冊都送了。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，我也希望上次我們討論的那個圖表，未來我們可以納入社安網第三期，如果您有建置第三期的話。"],["李次長麗芬：社安網2.0。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，2.0。","我的發言時間只剩2分鐘。這個也是最近我們醫界很關心的議題，就是健保基金運用辦法，您在大年初七，也就是農曆年的時候，預告要修正，結果只給了7天的預告期，想問一下，是什麼事情有這麼緊急要跳過一般的程序？因為我們蔡政府105年10月就要求各機關，任何法規修正公告期至少要60天。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這一個部分為什麼要修正，就是去年有240億的公務預算撥到健保基金，今年有200億撥到健保基金。在去年撥到健保基金之後，因為我們要處理所謂的癌症新藥，還有護理人員的待遇，像夜班費，還有另外一個最重要的就是補點值……"],["陳委員菁徽：就是因為補點值，大家很關心。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以當時就在健保會裡面產生一個爭議，也就是公務預算挹注進來的到底算不算是安全準備的一部分？這是付費者代表他們主張的，但是醫界認為這個應該跑到總額這邊來，才能用來補點值，這個爭議就沒有辦法解決。所以我們必須要處理這一塊，公務預算補進來的，那要怎麼樣用？所以我們修了這個辦法。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但這個不是很符合程序正義，因為沒有人覺得有這麼緊急，雖然茲事體大。"],["薛部長瑞元：今年馬上就有了。"],["陳委員菁徽：您看您列出來的項目，就基金用途，其實我們明定基金用途一定要寫得很清楚，你的基金用途裡面有醫療科技評估、服務審查、全民健保推動相關支出，但是全民健保推動相關支出明明就在你的公務預算裡面，編列了28億預算……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是菸捐的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂。"],["薛部長瑞元：菸捐挹注到健保基金裡面的用途。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是菸捐前半部是到醫療機構，後半部是做這些醫療政策的推動，你把它的項目全部都混在一起了。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這個……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以醫界會擔心。你這一頁還講到之後是由主管機關擬訂計畫，而且是指定用途喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，以公務預算挹注的話，其實這個公務預算的部分就會經過貴院的審查，所以……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以之後我們會詳細……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這個也不會……，只不過他不必去走健保會的那個機制。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但是沒有人會知道最後你要怎麼分配比例，就像癌症基金，很多委員都很支持啊！癌症新藥基金大家都有提案。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們就會提計畫嘛！如果在公務預算撥補的時候就已經指定用途，那當然就會經過貴院的審查。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，因為你已經有癌症基金，就是癌症新藥基金，然後你又把癌症基金混在這個健保基金……"],["薛部長瑞元：那個是因為現在的機制裡面，我們認為先用健保去做，因為你如果還要再成立一個基金的話，那就有財政紀律法的那些相關問題，這恐怕不容易成立，就是獨立去成立一個基金。"],["陳委員菁徽：你也可以把新藥開發編到你的公務預算等等，但是你讓基層的醫療看到你把這麼多品項全部混合進來，大家會很擔心是不是撥到醫療院所的會被稀釋掉，最後……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是公務預算的部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個太過……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，下次再討論，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","作以下宣告：等蘇清泉委員質詢完畢，休息10分鐘。","現在請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","林淑芬","陳菁徽","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","王正旭","盧縣一","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra 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