{"error":false,"id":["150620"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150620,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150620","日期":"2024-03-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-28T11:35:18+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-28T11:43:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf06c7b2d277eef35bb83f090e56da198af8ba9b0039caa7a60853a9f02a015eae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:35:18 - 11:43:16","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案18案（報告事項）。【第18案，如經復議則不予處理】\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1500,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時35分）謝謝主席，我請教育部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長明裕：委員早。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長午安。昨天不曉得次長您有看到兒福聯盟開的記者會嗎？"],["林次長明裕：有。"],["郭委員昱晴：是不給提問的記者會，對不對？"],["林次長明裕：我有看一段直播。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然我們相信，身為主管機關的教育部跟衛福部，其實你們也羅列了七大缺失，教育部這邊也特別提了四項。"],["林次長明裕：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們姑且先不要看這些缺失，我想兒福聯盟已經不是第一次出事了，例如五年前的佩佩案，其實早在那個時候我們就應該要開始要針對他們的重大缺失，因為一個孩子的死亡是在他們這麼大的一個、有龐大資產的財團法人當中離開的。接下來又發生了剴剴案，除了雙北市政府必須要負起應該要負的責任，已經不再是公親以外，我相信身為兒福聯盟的兩大主管，包含我們的衛福部，還有教育部，你們也應該要負起責任。好，我想問一下次長，您知道兒福聯盟他們從 110年之後，其實他們就沒有所謂的監察人的職權存在，您知道這件事嗎？"],["林次長明裕：這個我們，它以前都有，110年之後，監察人就辭職，辭職以後它也未補設……"],["郭委員昱晴：它到現在都沒有補設耶。"],["林次長明裕：對，它有允諾說下一次董事會要再來補選。"],["郭委員昱晴：既然它沒有監察人，它怎麼落實它自己本身內控的問題？再加上我們是要查詢，也就是我們要備查他們的這個部分，是不是也等於是虛設？"],["林次長明裕：它的捐助章程自己是寫得設，它自己的內部治理說得設監察人一至三人，但是因為我們這樣看，因為它有龐大的資產，所以沒有監察報告是不行的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這個回過頭來，110年之後，它沒有監察人這個角色存在，109年，如果點開教育部的資訊網站當中可以看到一則新聞是當初兒福聯盟用3.7億買下了大樓，這個部分其實當時教育部就有說你們要嚴格的要來審查，你們做到了嗎？"],["林次長明裕：這個請司長來做一下回答，可以嗎？"],["李司長毓娟：報告委員，有關當時他們買內湖的那棟大樓，它後來沒有動用到法登，就是法院登記的財產，後來是用它的年度預算來購買這個大樓，如果沒有動用到法登的財產，其實它是不需要報教育部。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為通常我們教育部在備查他們整個所有的流程，不管是他們的工作報告、業務報告也好，或者是他們的財產清冊也好，你們教育部的作法是什麼？你們對底下的財團法人的作法，是用抽查的、用抽的？還是像這樣子，一個比較大，幾乎可以算是壟斷了，像擁有這麼龐大資產的兒福聯盟，你們是每年必查嗎？還是只是用抽的？"],["李司長毓娟：因為教育部底下有七百多家的基金會，目前我們是規定他們每年必須要在 1月跟 5月上傳他們的工作計畫、預算，以及他們的財報，這個是他們每年都必須要上傳的，那我們會請會計師來做查核。"],["郭委員昱晴：那你們沒有發現他110年就已經沒有監察人這個遴選的角色存在了嗎？"],["李司長毓娟：因為它的組織章程是得設，而不是應設……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以你們也不強制要求？"],["李司長毓娟：所以這個部分，我們是……"],["郭委員昱晴：還是從現在開始，我們要強制要求？"],["李司長毓娟：財團法人法目前是用得設的方式，所以我們沒有辦法強制要求，但是我們可以列入優先抽查。"],["林次長明裕：沒有關係，得設監察人它沒有設，那以後就列為稽查的重點。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這個就像我剛剛說的，他們所有工作的報告、業務的內容，包含他們的財產清冊，還有他們整個所有高層──他們的董事、他們的執行長，如果有違背他們當初設立的職務的宗旨，其實你們是可以裁罰的，拜託硬起來，你們是可以裁罰的，這個部分要不要做到？"],["林次長明裕：按照我們財團法人法所授權的行政單位，的確有這一條。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這一次你們羅列的七大缺失當中、四大缺失當中，其實你們自己也說了，執行長跟策略長兩個職位，他們的職權、職能分工，其實界線不是那麼的清楚。"],["林次長明裕：但是它沒有書面規章來約束，所以他們執行長現在辭職了，現在反而是策略長在接替這個位置。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以它要不要被究責嘛？需不需要？這麼大的一個案件。"],["林次長明裕：基於他們董事會的的治理精神，我們是尊重它，但是因為……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為他們是可有作為，但是不作為喔！這個部分其實真的要拜託教育部，我們不希望再看到剴剴的案子再發生，因為我們知道它的手上還有123個孩子。現在雖然我們暫停它收出養的業務，但是將來呢，會不會有第二個剴剴？會不會有第三個剴剴？會不會有第四個佩佩？"],["林次長明裕：對於教育財團法人的監理，我們應該要更下一點功夫了。"],["郭委員昱晴：加油好嗎？我們希望看到教育部身為它的主管機關，我們真的嚴格用財團法人法來看看這個兒福聯盟，它到底是怎麼辜負所有臺灣人的捐款，可以嗎？"],["林次長明裕：對，這個以後要更加地努力，因為它在國人的捐款裡面，得到絕大部分、百分之七十八的收入，所以這一部分基於法益、公益的踐行，我們的確要扮演更強的功能。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為今天我們是外委，所以我的時間的關係，我請一下薛部長可以嗎？不好意思。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長好。現在目前全國待收出養的孩子大概有430位，在兒福聯盟手上還有123位，接下來這123位，雖然我們已經暫緩它收出養的業務，這123位孩子誰負責？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還是它繼續在負責當中，因為我們是暫停它未來的，但是……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這個還是由它負責？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是我們會要求地方政府一定要加強它的……"],["郭委員昱晴：地方政府有站出來嗎？還是公親嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有、沒有，我們要求……"],["郭委員昱晴：臺北市政府要不要出來負責？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會要求它加強現在已經在收養當中的這一百多位……"],["郭委員昱晴：你們儘量做到好嗎？好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這真的是全臺灣人的痛，剴剴案不能就這樣沉水了，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接下來請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","林淑芬","陳菁徽","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","王正旭","盧縣一","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐巧芯","羅智強","洪孟楷","李彥秀","李坤城","陳培瑜","張雅琳","陳瑩","劉建國","黃珊珊","楊曜","邱鎮軍","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":355,"meetingDate":["2024-03-28"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進作法」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部次長就「出養童遭虐致死事件檢討會議要求新北市政府、臺北\n市政府及兒童福利聯盟所提供之檢討報告」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、處理中華民國113年\n度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結案 18 案（報告事項）。【專題報告綜合詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1132102_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.69659375,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.89721875,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.16284375,"end":22.356593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.96409375,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.99784375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.453468750000003,"end":27.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.12784375,"end":28.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.988468750000003,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.097843750000003,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.81909375,"end":38.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.51096875,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.860968750000005,"end":34.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.674718750000004,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.39596875,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.665968750000005,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.06096875,"end":52.174718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.596593750000004,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.072843750000004,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.53659375,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.06784375,"end":63.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.447218750000005,"end":65.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.11346875000001,"end":67.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.73346875,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.74596875,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.72034375,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.16721875,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.46659375,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.98534375,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.67284375,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.44471875,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.65971875000001,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.37159375,"end":94.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.66596875,"end":96.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.19721875,"end":97.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.20971875000001,"end":103.82909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.33534375,"end":105.33096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.63471875,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.87846875000001,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.91221875000001,"end":113.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.38034375000001,"end":117.75096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.03346875000001,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.69471875,"end":128.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.73659375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.81221875,"end":132.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.03971875000002,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.54534375,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.32096875000002,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.08409375000002,"end":146.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.00346875,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.47596875000002,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.79596875000001,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.13346875000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.15034375000002,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.46221875,"end":157.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.66034375,"end":159.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.65159375000002,"end":163.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.34721875,"end":167.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.71784375000001,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.74221875,"end":176.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.29846875,"end":179.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.47534375,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.04909375,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.36971875,"end":188.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.76096875000002,"end":189.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.12784375,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.70346875,"end":208.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.36971875,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.35159375,"end":222.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.94971875000002,"end":225.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.64971875,"end":227.57346875000002},{"s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我想問一下就是 呃 次長您知道兒童福利聯盟他們從110年之後其實他們就沒有所謂的監察人的職權的存在您知道這件事嗎這個我們他以前都有那110年之後監察人就辭職辭職以後他也未補社他到現在沒有補社欸對 他有允諾說下一次董事會要再來補選"},{"start":119.076,"end":132.131,"text":"那既然他沒有監察人他怎麼落實他自己本身的內控的問題再加上我們是要查詢也就是我們要備查他們的這個部分是不是也等於是許捨"},{"start":133.086,"end":159.029,"text":"他的捐助章程自己是寫得赦他自己的內部治理說得赦監察人一至三人那但是因為我們這樣看因為他有龐大的資產所以沒有監察報告是不行的是好這個回過頭來他110年他沒有監察人這個角色存在了那109年您記得點開教育部的"},{"start":160.571,"end":175.881,"text":"資訊網站當中可以看到一則新聞是當初兒童福利聯盟用3.7億買下了大樓這個部分其實當時教育部就說我要嚴格的要來審查你們做到了嗎請市長來做一下回答可以嗎"},{"start":182.071,"end":205.243,"text":"報告委員,那有關那個當時他們買內湖的內棟大樓是他後來沒有動用到法登,就是法院登記的財產他後來是用他的這個年度預算來購買這個大樓所以如果那個沒有動用到法登的財產,其實他是不需要報教育部"},{"start":205.743,"end":233.386,"text":"因為通常我們教育部在備查他們的整個所有的流程不管是他們的工作報告、業務報告也好或者是他們財產清澈也好就是你們教育部的做法是什麼你們對底下的財團法人的做法是用抽查的用抽的還是像這樣子一個比較大幾乎可以算是壟斷了像這麼大的一個龐大資產的一個兒童聯盟你們是每年備查嗎還是只是用抽的"},{"start":235.086,"end":256.014,"text":"因為教育部底下有700多家的這個基金會那目前我們是每年他們必須在1月跟5月必須要上傳他當那個工作計畫預算以及他的這個財報這個是他每年都必須要上傳那我們會請會計那你們沒有發現他110年就已經沒有監察人這個"},{"start":261.016,"end":286.749,"text":"這個遴選的角色存在了嗎?但因為他的組織章程是德社而不是英社所以沒有你們也不強制要求所以這個部分我們是還是要從現在開始我們要強制要求財團法人法目前是用德、德社的方式所以我們沒有辦法強制要求但是我們可以列入優先抽查對因為德社監察人他沒有事那以後就列為稽查的重點"},{"start":288.632,"end":311.768,"text":"因為這個就像我剛剛說的因為他們所有的工作的報告業務的內容包含他們財產清澈還有他們整個所有高層他們的董事他們的執行長如果有違背他們當初設立的職務的宗旨其實你們是可以拜託印起來是可以裁罰的這個部分要不要做到按照我們財團法人法所授權的行政單位的確有這一條"},{"start":319.107,"end":346.115,"text":"因為這次你們羅列的七大缺失當中四大缺失當中其實你們也自己也說了執行長跟策略長兩個職位他們的職權職能分工其實不是那麼界限不是那麼的清楚沒有書面規章來約束所以他們執行長現在辭職了現在反而是策略長在接替這個位置所以那他要不要被究責嗎需不需要這麼大的一個案件董事會的"},{"start":347.844,"end":366.632,"text":"的治理精神我們是尊重他因為他們是可有作為但是不作為喔那這個部分其實拜託真的教育部我們不希望再看到凱凱的案子再發生因為我們知道他的手上還有123個孩子現在雖然我們暫停他收出養的一個業務但是將來呢會不會有第二個凱凱會不會有第三個凱凱會不會有第四個佩佩"},{"start":374.072,"end":392.7,"text":"這個對於財團法人的監理我們應該要更加一點功夫加油好嗎我們希望看到教育部身為他的主管機關我們真的嚴格用財團法人法來看看這個兒童福利聯盟他到底是怎麼辜負所有臺灣人的捐款可以嗎"},{"start":394.206,"end":414.136,"text":"對 這個以後要更加的努力因為他在國人的捐款裡面得到絕大部分78%的收入所以這一部分基於法醫公益的這個健行我們的確要辦理更強的功能來因為今天我們是外委所以我的時間的關係我請一下這個薛部長可以嗎不好意思委員好"},{"start":421.874,"end":436.179,"text":"部長好現在目前全國帶出養的孩子大概有430位在兒童福利聯盟手上還有123位接下來這123位雖然我們已經暫緩他收出養的一個業務123位的孩子誰負責目前還是他繼續在負責當中因為我們是暫停他未來的"},{"start":448.688,"end":475.89,"text":"所以這個還是由他負責?對,但是我們會要求地方政府一定要加上他的地方政府有站出來嗎?還是公親嗎?沒有沒有,我們要求臺北市政府要不要出來負責?我們會要求他加強這現在已經在收養當中的這一百多人我們盡量做到好嗎?好不好?因為這真的是全臺灣人的痛凱凱案不能就這樣沉睡了謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":478.103,"end":478.124,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}