{"error":false,"id":["150638"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150638,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150638","日期":"2024-03-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-28T12:45:47+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-28T12:56:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fc09d97f3151fdf89447007bee628daeef14c05a86b4f80f8ba9b0039caa7a69f832486cc9db8e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:45:47 - 12:56:30","會議時間":"2024-03-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部、教育部、衛生福利部、內政部警政署就「青少年法治教育與犯罪防制成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於法務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共6案。\n【其中各案如經院會復議，則不予審查、處理】）","gazette":{"lineno":1404,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時45分）你好，我們請部長上台。"],["主席：有請蔡部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，另外我想也請刑事局局長上台。"],["主席：請周局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長、局長，兩位午安。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，首先我想要跟你們討論一下，因為我們這次主要的議題是青少年犯罪，螢幕上這張圖表其實在上一次院會質詢的時候，我就有使用過了，也就是說，目前對於預防少年犯罪，法務部是掌握全國目前最多偵查資源的，那我們從源頭打擊和從末端的矯正教育來補救，其實法務部都可以做很多事情，我主要想要談的是目前我國法制面有沒有什麼可以有效嚇阻黑幫吸收少年？"],["蔡部長清祥：在法制面，組織犯罪防制條例也修法，對於吸收青少年作為幫派成員有一個單獨的處罰規定，本來在很多原來的法規裡面，對於成年人利用青少年犯罪，都有加重其刑的規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，OK。但是這個部分我想先說明一下，黑幫吸收少年的方式其實跟以前有點不太一樣，我上次在院會也有提到，以前可能是在撞球間或電動玩具間，現在的話，很多時候都是利用通訊軟體，或者是用網路的方式去吸收，所以這個部分將來我們在修法的時候，可能就要列入參考，對於吸收模式的改變，將來我們在修法時，是不是有辦法去修目前的做法，能夠讓效果更好。好，部長您剛剛說到組織犯罪條例第四條第三項，就是對於吸收未成年人的處罰，我想請教一下，你知不知道這幾年因為這樣的案件，成年人被起訴定罪的件數？你知道嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：統計數字我們可以來提供。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒問題，這個會後再提供給我就好了。","依照警政署的報告，從103年到112年，少年犯罪人口數大概每年是一萬人，到112年，擔任車手等等，在112年被查獲的是2,193人，這個真的是不低的一個數字。我想請問一下，部長，在這些少年的處罰上面，有一個很大的問題，就是現在少年很多都是因為擔任車手而觸犯刑案，可是我們抓車手的時候，只抓得到最基層的車手，甚至連車手頭都抓不到，也就是說，你再回過頭去看組織犯罪條例，它沒有一個持續性的結構，因為抓不到車手頭，永遠只能抓到最基層的那個行為人，變成這種案子到最後都沒有辦法依現有的證據去勾稽，然後用組織犯罪條例去處罰，我不知道部長有沒有發現這個狀況？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，剛剛提到的是法制面，另外在執行面，檢察官在偵辦這個案子的時候，怎麼樣搜集到相關的證據，向上溯源，不能只抓到一個車手，只抓到基層的犯罪者而已，上面的集團主謀才更是我們要打擊的對象。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再解釋一下，我們現在發現青少年犯罪，很多都是跟車手有關，當然我們會很希望去瓦解這些利用未成年人的犯罪集團，對於犯罪集團的認定，我們必須要有一個持續性的結構，但是我們怎麼抓，永遠都只抓到最基層的車手，我們連車手頭都抓不到，更不要講後面那個幕後的人。也就是說，我們抓了再多的車手，我們也沒有辦法用組織犯罪條例去處罰任何成年人，或者是其他的共犯，就是抓到的都變成是個案，到最後都變成這樣子。針對這個部分，我跟部長建議一下，是不是部裡面也可以稍微研議一下這個部分要怎麼處理？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來就是延續我們剛剛說的，其實組織犯罪條例第四條第三項對於招募未成年人的處罰，我自己有去用關鍵字去搜尋判決，我用「招募未滿」跟「組織犯罪條例第四條」去搜尋，發現從108年到現在只有44件，也就是這個條文的立法原意是不錯，但是在執行上面，似乎效果很不好，否則你看現在很多都是利用未成年人去犯罪，可是就像部長您剛剛說的，我們現在確實有法制可以去處罰成年人招募未成年人來實施犯罪，但是呢？我們用這個關鍵字去查詢，卻發現從108年到現在只有44件有用這個條文去處罰，所以這個效果是很不彰，我想部長應該可以認同吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果從數字上看起來成效不是那麼好的話，我們會再加強，尤其在檢察官的專業訓練上，我們會互相來研習、分享經驗。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。部長，另外還有一個，我們剛剛提到的是第四條第三項對於招募未成年人的這個招募者的處罰，我在這邊也跟部長建議一下，從實務上面的角度去看，我覺得如果僅對於招募者去處罰，其實是不夠的，法務部是不是能夠去研擬，不能只對招募者去處罰，而是應該去處罰這個犯罪集團的主事者？因為現在招募者通常都是最底下的幹部，比如我剛剛講的車手，那招募者就是車手頭，但是車手頭在這個犯罪集團裡面，也是一個非常低階的幹部，結果高階的那些幹部，甚至這個組織犯罪的幕後金主，或者是實際的操控者，卻不在第四條的處罰範圍內，這個部分是不是麻煩部長回去請同仁研擬討論一下，看看有沒有辦法朝這個方向去修正？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為在實務上面，我自己以前在辦案子的時候，我就發現有這個漏洞。"],["蔡部長清祥：但是如果後面的主謀跟招募者有共犯關係，我們還是用共犯來處理，但是委員的建議是，如果招募者之上還有一個更嚴重的首謀者，我們可以加重這個首謀者的處罰。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，因為在實務上面很明顯，車手頭根本就不會是那個犯罪集團的主要核心幹部，到最後處罰，組織犯罪條例都變成是針對那個招募者，而漏掉了他背後的金主或主要的控制者，我們在法條上面是不是也能夠研擬把這個加進去？當然你說用共同正犯去處理，也不是不行，但是很多時候如果車手頭找不出來，你就沒有辦法把後面主事者直接用行為人的方式處理。這一塊可能就麻煩部長這邊稍微研擬一下。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有一個，組織犯罪條例第三條規範的這些行為態樣，我覺得沒有很完善，所以針對少年的部分，我提供一個建議，在兒少福利保障法第四十九條第一項，其實有非常多行為人對於對未成年人所做的一些行為，而去做一些行政罰的態樣，將來我們在做組織犯罪條例第三條的立法時，可不可以思考一下，是不是可以把第四十九條中的一些行為態樣，轉移到組織犯罪條例裡面，去增加對於未成年人的保障？就是去懲罰這些組織對於未成年利用的一些行為。對這個部分，我是沒有很強烈地要求部長要馬上做，但是是不是也可以請同仁稍微做一些研擬，然後瞭解一下這部分適不適合移植到組織犯罪條例裡面？"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。最後我想跟部長講一下，敦品學校的事情，當然是法務部主要的責任，我們想要瞭解一下這所學校的課表，還有目前是不是有輔導人員跟少年人數比例的相關資料？是不是可以在會後給我們這一份資料？"],["蔡部長清祥：好，我會請矯正署來準備。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。還有一個，這幾天有發生重大的食安案件，而且導致民眾死亡，在偵查不公開的例外，就是對於公益有重大關係的話，是可以適度公開，因為這個案件造成人心惶惶，部長是不是可以請偵查機關在不影響辦案的情況下，能夠適度公開？因為這個沒有違反偵查不公開原則，這個部分也請部長幫忙一下。"],["蔡部長清祥：好，這是我們應該做的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳召委，謝謝蔡部長，謝謝局長。","接下來有請徐委員欣瑩發言。徐委員欣瑩、徐委員欣瑩不在。","有請萬委員美玲。萬委員美玲，萬委員美玲不在。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速提交，送交個別委員及本會。委員劉建國、張雅琳、陳冠廷所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-10","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","牛煦庭","柯志恩","羅廷瑋","洪孟楷","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","張雅琳","吳沛憶","鄭天財Sra 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質詢的時候我就使用過了也就是說目前對於預防少年犯罪呢法務部是掌握全國目前最多偵查資源的那我們從源頭打擊還有從末端的這個矯正教育的補救其實法務部都可以做很多事情"},{"start":55.868,"end":64.545,"text":"那我主要是想要談到的就是目前我國法制面有沒有什麼可以有效這個嚇阻黑幫吸收少年"},{"start":65.951,"end":92.113,"text":"在法制面我們組織犯罪防制條例也修法對於吸收青少年作為幫派的成員有一個單獨的處罰規定本來在原來的很多的法規裡面對於成年利用青少年犯罪的話都有加重期刑的規定但這個部分我想先說明一下就是有關黑幫"},{"start":93.393,"end":121.743,"text":"他吸收少年的方式其實跟以前有點不太一樣那我上次在院會也有提到以前可能是在撞球間或電動玩具間那現在的話很多時候他都是利用通訊軟體或者是用網路的方式去吸收所以這個部分在將來我們在修法的時候可能就要列入一個參考就是對於這個吸收的模式的改變將來我們在修法是不是有辦法去修正一些目前的做法能夠讓效果到更好"},{"start":123.304,"end":145.418,"text":"我們現在講到就是部長那你知不知道就是您剛剛說到的是組織條例的第四條第三項就對於吸收未成年人的這個處罰那我想請教一下那你知不知道這幾年因為這樣的案件成年人被起訴定罪的比例件數你有知道嗎?"},{"start":147.641,"end":168.591,"text":"統計數字我們可以來提供好沒問題這個會後再提供給我就好了那依照警政署的報告其實這幾年啊那個從103年到112年平均少年的那個犯罪人口數大概每年是1萬人那到112年因為這個什麼擔任車手"},{"start":173.903,"end":185.298,"text":"等等的這個其實112年查獲是2193這個真的是不低的一個數字那我是想請問一下部長在這些少年的這個處罰上面"},{"start":187.423,"end":210.319,"text":"有一個很大的問題就是現在少年很多都是因為車手而被而出犯刑案可是我們抓車手的時候我們只抓到最基層的車手我們甚至連車手頭都抓不到也就是說你再回過頭去看組織犯罪條例他沒有一個持續性的結構因為你抓不到車手頭你永遠抓到只是最基層的那個行為人"},{"start":211.48,"end":238.479,"text":"變成我們這種案直到最後都沒有辦法依現有的證據去勾擊然後讓他去用組織犯罪條例去處罰我不知道部長有沒有發現有這個狀況是,剛剛提到是法制面那另外這個執行面就是說你檢察官在偵辦這個案子的時候怎麼樣收集到相關的證據那向上溯源不能只抓到一個車手在基層的這些犯罪者而已上面的集團性的"},{"start":239.099,"end":256.209,"text":"主謀才是更是我們要打擊的對象我再解釋一下部長就是說青少年犯罪我們現在發現很多都是跟車手有關那當然我們會很希望就是去破就是瓦解這些犯罪集團在利用這些未成年人"},{"start":256.969,"end":279.778,"text":"可是對於犯罪集團的認定我們必須要有一個持續性的結構但是我們怎麼抓永遠都是只抓到最基層的車手我們連車手頭都抓不到更不要講後面的那個幕後的人也就是說我們抓了再多的這個車手我們也沒有辦法用組織犯罪條例去處罰任何成年人或者是其他的共犯"},{"start":280.863,"end":304.598,"text":"就是抓到變成都是各案各案各案這樣子到最後都變成這樣子那我是這個部分我可能就是跟部長建議一下是不是部裡面也可以稍微研議一下這個部分要怎麼處理那再來就是延續我們剛剛說的其實這個組織犯罪條例第4條第3項這個對於未成年人就是招募未成年人的這個處罰"},{"start":307.344,"end":331.192,"text":"我自己有去用那個判決去搜尋關鍵字那我用招募未滿跟那個組織犯罪條例第4條我發現從108年到現在只有44件也就是說這個條文的它的立法的原意是不錯但是在執行上面似乎效果很不好"},{"start":332.27,"end":348.075,"text":"否則你看現在嘛很多都是用未成年人去犯罪可是就像部長您剛說的我們現在確實有法制可以去處罰成年人招募未成年人來實施犯罪但是呢我們用這個關鍵字去查詢卻發現從108年到現在只有44件"},{"start":352.997,"end":377.356,"text":"有用這個條文去處罰所以這個效果是很不髒我想部長應該可以認同吧如果這個數字上看起來不是那麼成效好的話我們會來再加強尤其在檢察官的專業訓練上我們會互相來研習分享經驗那另外還有一個就是"},{"start":378.237,"end":404.342,"text":"我們剛提到的是這第四條第三項對於招募未成年人的招募者的處罰那我在這邊也跟部長建議一下從事務上面的角度我去看我覺得如果僅對於招募者去處罰的話其實是不夠的那是不是法務部能夠去研擬不能只對招募者去處罰而是應該去處罰到他這個犯罪集團的主事者"},{"start":405.302,"end":429.924,"text":"因為現在招募者通常都是最底下的幹部比如說我剛剛講的車手那招募者就是車手頭但是車手頭在這個犯罪集團裡面也是一個非常低階的幹部結果高階的那些幹部甚至他這個組織犯罪的幕後金主或者是實際的這個操控者卻不在第4條的處罰範圍內那這個部分是不是麻煩部長能夠"},{"start":431.545,"end":458.141,"text":"回去跟就是請同仁研擬討論一下看看有沒有辦法朝這個方向去修正好因為這實務上面我自己以前在辦案的時候我就發現有這個漏洞但是如果他的後面的主謀跟招募者這個是有共犯關係的話我們還是用共犯來處理但是委員的建議說如果除了招募者之上還有一個更嚴重的守摩者的話我們可以加重這個守摩者的處罰因為這個"},{"start":459.562,"end":475.807,"text":"在實務上很明顯車手頭根本就不會是那個犯罪集團的主要的核心幹部那我們到最後處罰組織犯罪條例都變成是針對在那個招募者而漏掉了他背後的金主或者是主要的控制者"},{"start":476.787,"end":496.658,"text":"那是不是說我們在法條上面也能夠嚴厲把這個加進去當然你說共同政法去處理也不是不行但是很多時候如果我們這個車手頭找不出來那你沒有辦法直接把後面主事者直接把他用行為人就直接把他處理嘛這一塊可能就麻煩部長這邊能夠稍微嚴理一下"},{"start":501.715,"end":515.114,"text":"還有一個就是我想提的一個就是組織犯罪條例第三條其實它其實規範的這些行為的態樣有一點就是我覺得沒有很完善就針對少年的部分"},{"start":516.368,"end":537.942,"text":"所以我提供一個建議在兒少福利保障法第49條第一項其實有非常多這個行為人他對未成年的一些行為而去做一些行政法的太陽那將來我們在組織犯罪條例第三條的立法的我們可不可以思考一下是不是可以某程度的把49條這個"},{"start":540.838,"end":568.373,"text":"一些行為太陽我們把它轉移植到組織犯罪條例裡面去增加對於未成年人的保障就是我們要去懲罰這些組織對於未成年的利用啦對他們一些行為這個部分我是沒有說很強烈的要求部長要馬上做但是是不是也可以請同仁稍微做一些研擬然後了解一下這個適不適合移植到我們的組織犯罪條例裡面好"},{"start":570.508,"end":599.122,"text":"最後我想跟部長講一下時間也不夠了啦就是這個燉品學校這個事情那當然這是法務部法務部這個主要的責任嘛那是不是說也可以去我們想要了解一下這個學校裡面他的一些課表還有目前是不是有這個輔導人員跟這個少年的這個比例是不是可以會後能夠給我們這一份資料"},{"start":599.743,"end":609.041,"text":"我會請教政署來準備還有一個就是因為這兩天這幾天有發生那個重大的食案而且導致那個民眾死亡的案件"},{"start":610.305,"end":638.759,"text":"那在偵查不公開的例外就是對於這個公益有重大這個關係的話他是可以適度的公開那因為這個東西對民眾其實有一點造成人心惶惶那是不是部長也可以請偵查機關在不違反不影響辦案的情況下能夠做適度的公開因為這個沒有違反偵查不公開好那這部分也請部長能夠幫忙一下好我們應該做的是好謝謝部長"},{"start":640.168,"end":640.694,"text":"好 謝謝吳釗偉 謝謝蔡部長 謝謝局長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}