{"error":false,"id":["150702"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150702,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150702","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[19,23],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T09:41:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T09:52:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0b9fed7a99d2e19880ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a61053a2c2ab28c8d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:41:48 - 09:52:26","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","gazette":{"lineno":179,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時42分）請龔主委。"],["主席：我們再請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主委你好。我看你今天的這個報告是拒人於千里之外，你看看這個第4頁用了很重的話，你說今天這個法應尚無需求以另立新法之方式推動環島高速鐵路的建設，也沒有需要新設基金作為新經費的來源，如果照你們這樣，今天這個法是應該退回嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，不管是花東地區或是所有的交通建設，現在都有既有的機制在進行，也都滿足了大部分交通上的需求，如果將來環島高鐵有共識的話，應該既有的機制就已經可以達到這樣的目的了。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，這個案是53個立法委員連署提案，立法委員現在有幾個，113個對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["張委員啓楷：再加4個就過半了，你這樣拒人於千里之外，等於打臉了53位立法委員，這個案子是很有可能在立法院過的啊！那怎麼辦？退回嗎？還是等委員會審查，到了院會去表決？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這當然是尊重貴院的處理方式，我們行政單位都尊重，只是我們表達的是，環島高鐵這件事情當然重要，也看到很多人都支持，就我們來講，因為我們是審議機關，所以我們還是請交通部提出可行性研究出來以後再來審議……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在能不能夠清楚的跟全國民眾和我們委員們講，你贊成把這個法案退回去是不是？你今天用了這麼重的字眼啊！你認為沒有需要立新法啊！沒有需要立這個法啊！連錢也沒需要再編啊！沒有需要用基金啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為現在的既有機制就已經……"],["張委員啓楷：你有夠「古意」的，你看今天內政部被邀來，內政部只有短短一頁，裡面幾乎沒寫什麼內容啊！交通部也沒說什麼，你這個「古意」的龔主委，只有你提了滿滿的7頁，還打臉人家、拒人於千里之外，你要扛這個責任是不是？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有啦，花東地區的交通建設是大家都支持的，這件事有共識嘛！只是說怎麼樣的做法讓它比較合理，那我們提出我們的看法這樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：本席給大家看一個案子，叫作花東地區的發展條例，這個案子是什麼時候提的？民國100年。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["張委員啓楷：提案人是誰？民進黨黨團，談的也是花東地區的發展，裡面的內容是什麼？為了落實花東地區的永續發展，中央主管機關要設置花東地區的永續發展基金。基金的金額多少？400億。這裡面有兩個重點，第一個，它是可以成立一個發展條例，連400億的錢都寫得清清楚楚，所以前幾天在討論的違憲根本就不存在，預算案立法委員不得增加支出，對不對？可是在法案裡面是可以的，這是第一個點。第二個，主委你看，這個法在誰執政的時候通過？馬英九的國民黨政府時代。我要問，民進黨團在民國100年可以提這樣的條例，當時的國民黨政府也可以通過，為什麼今天53個立法委員不能提案，還要被退回？為什麼不能通過？馬英九行，為什麼蔡英文不行？花東地區的發展條例行，為什麼環島的高鐵就不行呢？為什麼不行？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為整個花東地區的這些綜合性的一些發展，這樣綜合性的發展沒有既有的機制，所以要成立一個特別條例來支持，但是現在單一交通案件的話，已經有既有的機制，所以是不是按照既有機制來……"],["張委員啓楷：所以我是在問你，當初也是民進黨黨團提的，對不對？國民黨也同意了，為什麼馬英九那時候沒有擋，還讓它通過？民進黨黨團提案，國民黨可以讓它過，為什麼現在國民黨或者53個立法委員也提了，民進黨就一定要去擋呢？至少讓它進到院會，還有討論嘛！對不對？像你剛剛講的，主管機關如果不是你的話，也可以討論啊！金額如果不要那麼多，也可以討論啊！主管機關如果不是國發會是交通部，也可以討論啊！當初國民黨有用這麼硬的態度說要退回或者說它完全不可行嗎？馬英九可以，為什麼蔡英文不行？花東的發展條例行，為什麼環島的高鐵就不行？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，所以我們的態度是從執行面來看，現在既有的機制已經可以這樣做，那我們就循既有的機制來做。"],["張委員啓楷：當初也有很多機制，100年在訂花東發展的時候，也是有機制在走啊！這個有什麼衝突嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：沒有，當初來講，花東地區沒有一個綜合性的基金跟特別條例來做一些規劃，那個時候是各部會用它的預算跟基金來做，我們有這個基金以後，可以公務預算為主，然後這個基金為輔來搭配，來額外的支持。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，這是一個花東地區整體的發展，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是、是、是、是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在提出的是針對環島的高鐵部分。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，它是一個交通的單一事項。"],["張委員啓楷：這兩個應該是可以配合的，這個沒有排斥到後面，為什麼不讓它併行去做呢？你可以講說不要你國發會來主責，像這裡面講的主管機關是誰？中央政府啊！那你也可以講中央政府來管啊！到時候看是要給國發會或者是交通部都可以啊！為什麼一開始都要拒人於千里之外呢？第二個，我再問你，你的調查報告第5頁裡面講到一個，你這是不是拆穿了國王的新衣啊？看一下，你說10年內做不到屏東段，也做不到宜蘭段的高鐵，你現在為了要推翻環島做不到，你這邊裡面寫的是什麼，連到宜蘭、到屏東10年內都可能做不到。你看一下左邊這個圖，去年選舉的時候，民進黨的立法委員陳俊宇爭取的是什麼？10年內要完成北宜高鐵，就是要到宜蘭。右下角這一張是誰？賴清德直接講喔！一條高鐵要打通屏東的任督二脈，賴清德要打通任督二脈，你們現在去把它堵住嗎？打不通了嗎？你們講10年內都做不到？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，如果是屏東段的話，路廊也許比較單純，但是北部宜蘭段的部分，它還牽涉到環境影響評估，還有用地取得問題，有些會經過比較敏感的地區，這個環評過程是稍微比較有挑戰性的。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我今天質詢你最重要的，你是管國家大政的，整體發展歸於國發會，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：當然，我們是儘量……"],["張委員啓楷：如果單純可能是交通部，老實講這條環島不是單純的交通問題，它是整個國土規劃，對整個國家發展非常重要。我給大家看一下，主委，從這個圖你看到什麼？北北基、桃竹苗、中彰投、雲嘉南、高屏的工業區都那麼多，為什麼宜花東只有11個？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為宜花……"],["張委員啓楷：區域發展嚴重失衡，對不對？再看下一張，人口都外流了，花蓮也在外流，你看它的人口成長都是負成長。再往下一張，花蓮跟宜蘭現在開始有地熱了，這是一個好的現象。看下一張，最嚴重的是什麼？現在核心就是要推動區域的平衡發展，這個條例為什麼有53個立法委員會簽？包括本席也支持，為什麼？東西失衡太嚴重，對不對？這應該是你的責任啊！你應該是盡責去支持東西發展，趕快把這條路建起來，整個環島的高鐵建起來之後，東西就平衡了，很多產業就可以到東邊來了，是不是這樣？你現在如果把它擋下來，一些新興的發展也沒有辦法到東部去，人口跟工作機會也沒有到東部，這是你的重責大任，所以你應該是投贊成票的啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：重大建設我們是支持的，只是我們表達的是說循現在既有的機制來辦理，我們的態度就是這樣。"],["張委員啓楷：我做一下結論，所以你的循現有機制是怎麼樣？要由交通部來主管。第二個，這個案子到底要不要審？要不要審？如果照你今天第4頁寫的沒有立新法的需要性，到底要不要審？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：要不要審這個是立法院的決議，不是我能決定的。"],["張委員啓楷：你這個條文裡面看起來是不需要，對不對？你表達立場認為不需要立新法，對不對？然後要不要審，由本院自己來決定，是不是這樣？我不要為難你，就是你的報告裡面是沒有需要，那你的意思就是由我們自己來決定要不要審？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我當然是尊重立法院的決議，但是我們還是表達立場就是說，東部交通我們一定會全力支持，現在的既有機制就可以循序漸進達到這樣的目的，所以目的是一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：目的一樣，可是我們希望透過這個新法要加快速度，如果照你的方法，不只是宜蘭、屏東10年做不到，這個法再拖下去可能20年、30年，宜蘭、花蓮跟臺東的人民還要等20年、等30年才能等到高鐵，是不是？如果照你們今天的推估，要20年後、30年後花東地區才會有高鐵嗎？這邊的人民太可憐了吧！一直在講整體規劃的是你啊！我們也愛花東的人民啊！希望它可以發展啊！要拖這麼久嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所有的交通建設都是……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，一線之間，所以今天只要你支持這個案子，花東地區的民眾可以早一點有高鐵、早一點有發展，它的人口不用外流，工作機會可以回到花蓮跟臺東，人口也可以回到花蓮跟臺東。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們是支持交通建設，全力支持。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委，希望今天的質詢對花東地區是有幫助的，一起努力，好不好？一線之間再想一想，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員。還好我們主委說審不審是立法院委員會的權益，不然張啓楷委員都氣到忘記要敬禮了。鄭正鈐委員請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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的金額多少四百億這裡面有兩個重點"},{"start":192.008,"end":215.404,"text":"第一個他是可以成立一個發展條例的,連前400億都寫得清清楚楚所以前幾天在討論什麼違憲根本就不存在啊預算案,立法院不得增加支出對不對可在法案裡面是可以的,這是第一個點第二個,諸位你看這個法在哪一個誰執政的時候通過馬英九的國民黨政府時代,我要問"},{"start":216.84,"end":232.912,"text":"民進黨團在民國100年可以提這樣的條例,當時的國民黨政府也可以通過,為什麼今天53個立法院不能提案?還要被退回,為什麼不能通過?馬英九行,為什麼蔡英文不行?花東地區的發展條例行,為什麼環島的高鐵就不行?"},{"start":238.604,"end":265.951,"text":"為什麼不行?不是,報告委員因為整個花東地區的這些綜合性的一些發展是這樣綜合性的一個發展的條例發展沒有既有的機制所以要成立一個特別條例來支持但是現在單一的交通的案件的話已經有既有的機制所以是不是按照既有的機制來當初也是民進黨黨團提的對不對國民黨也同意啦那為什麼馬英九那時候也沒有黨啊還讓他通過啊"},{"start":268.154,"end":291.02,"text":"民進黨黨團提案國民黨可以讓他過為什麼現在國民黨或者53個立法委員也提了為什麼民進黨就一定要去黨啊你至少讓他進到議員會好好討論嘛對不對因為你剛剛講的主管機關如果不是你的話也可以討論啊金額如果不要那麼多也可以討論啊主管機關如果不是國發會是交通部也可以討論啊當初國民黨用這麼硬的一個態度說要退回或者說他完全不可行嗎"},{"start":292.24,"end":319.808,"text":"馬英九可以,為甚麼蔡英文不行呢?花東的發展條例行,為甚麼環島的高鐵就不行呢?對,所以包委員,所以我們的態度是從執行面來看,現在既有的機制已經可以這樣做了,那我們就循既有的機制來這樣做。當初也有很多機制阿,在定100年在定這個花東發展的時候,也是有機制在走阿,這個有甚麼衝突嗎?沒有,當初來講花東基金沒有一個綜合性的一個基金跟一個特別條例來做一些規劃,那"},{"start":321.508,"end":349.121,"text":"那個時候是各部會用他的這個預算跟基金來做那我們有這個基金以後可以公務基金為主我們這個公務預算為主然後這個基金為輔來搭配來額外的支持主委這是一個花東地區整體的發展對不對是是是那現在他們提出是針對環島的這個對它是一個交通的單一事項那就是應該就是兩個是可以配合的啊這個沒有排斥到後面啊為什麼讓他並行去做呢你可以講你可以講說好那不要你國防會來主責"},{"start":350.262,"end":375.33,"text":"你像這個裡面講的主管機關是誰?中央政府啊那你也可以講中央政府來管啊到時候看是要給國發會或者是交通部都可以啊為什麼一開始都要繼承你前提之外呢?第一個我再問你你那個調查報告的第5頁裡面講到一個你這是不是拆穿了國防的心意啊?看一下你說10年來也做不到屏東段也做不到宜蘭段的高鐵"},{"start":377.708,"end":400.564,"text":"你現在為了要推翻說環島的做不到,你這邊裡面寫的是甚麼?連到宜蘭、到屏東,10年都可能設不夠,你看一下左邊這個圖這是古年代選舉以前連民進黨的立法委員陳靜瑜,他們爭取的是甚麼?10年內要完成北宜高鐵,就是要到宜蘭右下角這張是誰?賴清德直接講喔"},{"start":402.571,"end":430.092,"text":"一條高鐵要打通屏東的任督二脈,賴清磊要打通任督二脈,你們現在去把他堵住嗎?打不通了嗎?你們在講10年內都做不到啊?報告委員,如果是屏東段的話,路廊也許比較單純,但是北部宜蘭段的部分,它還牽涉到環境影響評估,還有用地取得問題,"},{"start":432.454,"end":457.908,"text":"有些會經過比較敏感的地區,那這個要環屏過程是稍微比較有挑戰性的。主委我今天質詢你最重要的,你是管國家大政的,整體發展可以歸於國發會嘛,對不對?當然我們是盡量...如果單純可能是交通部,老實講這一條環島全部它不是單純的交通問題,它是整個國土規劃、整個國家發展非常重要的。我給大家看一下,來喔,我給大家看一下。主委你從這個圖你看到什麼?"},{"start":460.185,"end":477.862,"text":"北北基、桃竹苗、中張頭、雲嘉蘭、高屏、工業區都那麼多,現在漁花都只有11個。區域發展嚴重失衡嘛,對不對,再看下一張,人口都外流了,花蓮也在外流,你看,它的人口成長都是負成長,再往下一張。"},{"start":480.233,"end":492.37,"text":"花蓮跟宜蘭現在開始有地熱了這是一個好的現象看下一張最嚴重的是什麼現在核心就是要推動區域的平衡發展嘛這個條例為什麼那麼多53個立法會簽包括本期也支持為什麼"},{"start":493.659,"end":515.294,"text":"東西失衡太嚴重,對不對?這應該是你的責任啊。不然我是盡責去支持這個東西發展,你趕快這條路建起來,整個環島的高鐵建起來之後,東西就平衡了嘛,很多產業就可以到東邊來了嘛,是不是這樣?結果你現在如果把它擋下來,一些新興的發展也沒有辦法到東部去,人口跟工作機會也沒有辦法到東部啊。這是你的重責大任啊,我覺得你應該是投贊成票的啊。"},{"start":516.931,"end":543.98,"text":"重大建設我們是支持的只是我們表達是說循現在既有的機制來辦理對,我們的態度就是這樣所以你的循現有機制是怎麼樣?要由交通部來主管第二個,這個案子到底要不要審?要不要審?你信不信?如果教你這個今天在審的沒有立心法的需要性對不對?到底要不要審?不是,這個要不要審這個是立法院的決議不是我能決定的"},{"start":544.793,"end":572.715,"text":"你這個條文裡面看起來是不需要嘛對不對你表達立場認為不需要立心法嘛對不對然後要不要審由本院自己來決定是不是這樣我不要為難你就是你的報告裡面是沒有需要嘛那你的意思就是由我們自己來決定要不要審我當然是尊重立法院的決議啦但是我們還是表達立場就是說東部交通我們一定會全力支持那現在的既有機制我們就可以循序漸進達到這樣的目的所以目的是一樣的"},{"start":574.281,"end":597.582,"text":"目的一樣,可是我們希望透過這個新法要加快速度嘛。若照你的方法,不只是宜蘭、屏東10年做不到,那這個法再拖下去可能20年、30年,宜蘭、花蓮跟台東人民,要等20年、30年,要等到高鐵是不是?若照你們今天的推估,要20年後、30年後,花東地區才會有高鐵嗎?"},{"start":599.309,"end":599.849,"text":"我們是支持這個交通建設全力支持"},{"start":629.619,"end":630.421,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}