{"error":false,"id":["150704"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150704,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150704","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T09:23:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T09:34:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c089fa4e2afe95a4f7f7510a295be7434bf8ba9b0039caa7a6c9aefdf55a054d255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:23:12 - 09:34:16","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程。(二)如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策。(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形。(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展。(五)原住民族學校法立法推動情形。(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形。(七)如何改善原住民族語言推動組織之需求。(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討。(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」。(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃。(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形。(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之困境。(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形。(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並落實老幼共學政策。(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育規劃。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。(僅詢答)【4月1日及3日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":136,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時23分）我請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我想請教一下，原住民族所有各族的語言現在有沒有已經走向瀕危程度的？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，其實16族的語言都是面臨瀕危的語言，只是有幾個族特別嚴重，所以這個部分我們加緊來復振；在聯合國的定義裡面，16族的語言都是瀕危語言。"],["張委員宏陸：有沒有到達滅絕的？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前來看的話，我們……"],["張委員宏陸：滅絕就是沒有任何使用者，但還是有這個語言。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：16族的部分目前還可以，因為長者都還會說族語，所以還不到滅絕的狀態，所以我們加緊來做一個傳承。"],["張委員宏陸：幾乎啦！我覺得應該是到危險跟重大危險啦！如果以聯合國來講，大概是小孩子都沒有在講就是危險了，重大危險就是祖父母輩還有在用、父母輩也不一定會了，對不對？我覺得我們現在遇到的問題應該是危險跟重大危險最多。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["張委員宏陸：完全沒有滅絕的嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：按照國內語言學家的認知，16族的語言目前雖然都是危險跟極度危險，但是滅絕的狀況應該還沒有發生。"],["張委員宏陸：還沒有？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：嗯，但是平埔族群的部分的確有一些語言應該沒有辦法再傳承了。"],["張委員宏陸：對！所以主委，我想要問你，平埔族裡面沒有滅絕的嗎？平埔族可能只剩文獻紀錄或什麼語音檔啊，有人在使用嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：現在有極少數的平埔族，比如說像西拉雅族或者是南投的巴宰族（Pazeh）跟噶哈巫族（Kaxabu），大概這3族的語言是祖父母輩的長輩還會講，西拉雅族現在是想盡各種方法來復振他們的語言。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！要復振嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以幾乎啦！如果以我、以聯合國的這種標準來講，西拉雅語還有人在用嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：現在只能在教學端做復振。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！平常都沒有任何語言的使用者、母語的使用者，以聯合國來講的話，就是滅絕嘛！這個語言雖然有保存下來，可以去學習，但等於幾乎就是沒有人在使用嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["張委員宏陸：以聯合國來講的話，沒有任何母語的使用者就是滅絕嘛！對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：就是在平常生活不使用的大概……"],["張委員宏陸：已經完全不使用了啦！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["張委員宏陸：已經完全不使用了。雖然文獻、語言有留存下來，可能有語音檔或什麼的，但是沒有人使用，這就是滅絕嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以主委，我們現在很多數據顯示，所有的原住民族語言都已經陷入危險跟極度危險，甚至有些是滅絕，所以我們一直在講要復振原住民的族語，這件事情我也質詢過很多次，可是我們就是沒有使用的環境，也沒有辦法。我想請教主委，能不能跟教育部討論一下，在原住民族地區的幼兒園、托兒所教他們母語？你覺得呢？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員的指教事實上我們這幾年已經注意到了，所以我們已經鼓勵很多幼兒園採用沉浸式的幼兒族語教學，目前臺灣大概有94個幼兒園已經開始實施族語教學的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：你覺得全臺灣這94個的成效如何？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些成效很明顯，因為有這個沉浸式幼兒園教學，小孩子已經可以開口說族語了，而且比例越來越高，以前10歲以下的小孩子連平常的對話都很困難，但是因為有了幼兒園的母語教學，復振的情況已經有一點點改善。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我覺得有母語在，這個文化才可以傳承。我認為以近代來講，在全世界當中，紐西蘭的毛利語復振算是成功的，不知道主委認不認同？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：的確，這幾年我們臺灣很多族語、母語教學都參考了紐西蘭過去成功的範例，將它引進來做為教學的參考。的確，目前全球是紐西蘭做得最為落實。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！因為紐西蘭的毛利人自己有覺醒，然後自己去推這個。我覺得啦！主委，我們當然想要做更多，但很多東西，如果紐西蘭這個毛利語他們做得很好，我覺得抄也不是丟臉的事情啦！對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["張委員宏陸：把他們好的東西拿來臺灣啊！我們可以在我們部落裡面或什麼，我們就趁現在趕快去做，因為那時候的毛利語其實比我們現在危險的程度更嚴重，對不對？所以我覺得，主委，我們是不是可以參考很多這樣的例子，我們可以做的趕快來做？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有，跟委員報告，在前院長蘇院長的時候我們開始推，委員也都知道，原住民大部分都信天主教跟基督教，每個禮拜天都會做禮拜，我們現在獎勵400間的牧師在傳道的時候全部用母語來傳道，這樣的話，小朋友、大人都可以聽到自己的族語，這部分目前成效是很不錯的。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得語言是要多方面啦！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是要多方面的，最主要是有那個環境。","最後我要再請教主委一下，文健站是不是從今年開始就會排除……比如說之前有查核委員曾經針對某部落文健站殺豬產生之食安提出食安的改進方法，是不是從今年開始我們排除類似的課程了？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我請我們處長跟委員報告。"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告一下，有關我們的查核委員，我們在最近已經有召開過一次共識會議，將所有查核的相關標準還有針對食安的部分，都有在那個會議裡面做一併的統一，所以我們也希望委員的態度是用輔導的角色，現在我們503個大部分所有的廚房，我們也都有跟衛生局的營養推廣中心合作，希望在食安的部分也做監督跟輔導，以上。"],["張委員宏陸：不是、不是，我問你的問題你沒有回答我，今年是不是已經排除了類似的課程？"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你要回答我這個問題啊！是還是不是？"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是？主委，我想請問一下，如果在文健站殺豬，主委覺得可以嗎？我先說殺豬其實是原住民民族裡面一個很重要的傳統文化吧？是一個非常重要的吧？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛？人家查核委員其實沒有禁止你，只是說要注意食安而已，對不對？那你們有沒有矯枉過正啊？這個是很重要的傳統文化，結果你們禁止，我覺得這個有點奇怪。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：處長跟我說明應該是沒有，他可能對……"],["張委員宏陸：他剛剛講「是」喔！他剛回答我「是」喔！主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這些傳統的飲食文化如果符合健康的話不應該被禁止啊！它食安也符合的話，就不應該被禁止。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，主委，剛剛你們處長回答我今年排除類似課程的時候，他回答「是」喔！主委，我覺得你們要去檢討，好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["張委員宏陸：可以馬上改啊！你是重視食安、重視這個衛生條件而已，不是禁止，人家查核委員也沒有說禁止啊！結果你們就這樣子排除。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員的指教也是，因為現在很多布農族的傳統婚禮都還是用殺豬的方式來做，食安只要注意到就可以了。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我現在重點就是人家沒有禁止你們，結果你們自己反而去主動禁止，你們應該去注重食安、如何去處理，而不是禁止啊！我覺得這個這麼重要的傳統文化不應該去禁止它啦！好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：對，我們儘可能在文健站保留我們的文化、保留我們的語言，當然包括飲食文化也要保留，只要符合健康的條件就可以了。"],["張委員宏陸：今年開始禁止，今年才剛開始沒多久，你們可以趕快回去處理，可以開放就要開放，只是要重視食安，不能禁止人家的殺豬文化啦！好不好？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：好。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢，謝謝主委。","繼續我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-9","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張宏陸","黃建賓","麥玉珍","王美惠","張智倫","黃仁","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","黃捷","陳瑩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林倩綺","黃國昌","盧縣一","蘇巧慧","丁學忠","陳培瑜"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會董事長、財團法人原住民\n族語言研究發展基金會董事長就以下事項進行專題報告，並備質詢：(一)2016年至2024年原住民\n族自治法及都市原住民發展條例立法推動歷程、 ( 二) 如何協助地方政府推動都市原住民政策、\n(三)部落產業發展及食農教育政策辦理情形、(四)部落地方創生計畫執行現況與未來發展、(五)\n原住民族學校法立法推動情形、(六)原住民族知識體系辦理情形、(七)如何改善原住民族語言推\n動組織之需求、(八)原住民族語言推動現況與預算執行檢討、(九)如何制定保障土地與居住權益\n之「原住民族土地使用規則（草案）」、(十)國土計畫法施行後部落自有住宅合法化推動規劃、\n(十一)部落聯絡道路養護及預算不足之辦理情形、(十二)如何協助原鄉公所基礎設施預算不足之\n困境、(十三)原住民族家庭服務中心轉型規劃辦理情形、(十四)如何精進原住民族文化健康站並\n落實老幼共學政策、(十五)原住民族電視臺及廣播電臺之各職類薪資待遇暨升遷制度及人才培育\n規劃；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草\n案」案。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1132201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":10.847843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.77096875,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.23034375,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.696593750000005,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.649718750000005,"end":37.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.96596875,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.767218750000005,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.65284375,"end":43.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.27721875,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.205343750000004,"end":47.736593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.85471875,"end":49.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.35659375,"end":52.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.55846875,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.338468750000004,"end":57.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.35534375,"end":65.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.99534375,"end":66.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.02909375,"end":68.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.79221875,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.13284375,"end":81.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.80284375000001,"end":91.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.27409375,"end":98.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.66534375,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.34846875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.74346875,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.13971875,"end":114.57846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.96659375,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.40471875,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.91909375,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.05784375,"end":127.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.01096875000002,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.02346875,"end":129.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.38971875000001,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.33846875,"end":141.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.01721875,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.62409375000001,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.15909375,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.15909375,"end":157.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.82909375,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.74846875,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.56659375,"end":164.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.64221875,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.40534375000001,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.80159375000002,"end":173.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.91096875000002,"end":177.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.97784375,"end":180.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.30221875,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.33596875,"end":181.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.38659375,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.63971875000001,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.66721875000002,"end":197.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.60346875000002,"end":220.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.51659375000003,"end":213.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.82034375,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.90784375,"end":221.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.99221875,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.45596875,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.85659375,"end":225.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.21346875,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.69846875000002,"end":239.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.28034375000001,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.59909375,"end":256.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.27346875,"end":259.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.27721875000003,"end":263.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.66909375,"end":265.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.03159375,"end":274.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.92471875,"end":289.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.16284375000004,"end":295.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.57971875000004,"end":296.9972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平常都沒有人在沒有任何語言的使用者母語的使用者以聯合國來講的話就是滅絕嘛這個語言雖然有保存下來可以去學習但等於幾乎就是沒有人在使用嘛這以聯合國來講的話沒有任何母語的使用者就是滅絕嘛"},{"start":221.082,"end":234.651,"text":"就是在平常生活不使用已經完全不使用了啦已經完全不使用雖然文獻雖然語言我們還可以有留存下來可能有語音檔有什麼的但沒有人使用這就是滅絕所以主委"},{"start":237.782,"end":251.538,"text":"我們現在很多的數據顯示所有的原住民族的語言都已經陷入到危險跟極度危險甚至有些是滅絕所以我們一直在講說要復興我們原住民的族語這個我已經也"},{"start":257.485,"end":279.498,"text":"執行過很多次可是我們就是沒有這個使用的環境我們就是沒有這種使用的環境我愛沒有辦法我想請教主委能不能跟教育部或我們大家的我們在這個我們的幼稚園托兒所要不要在我們各個原住民族的地區我們要不要開這個"},{"start":283.04,"end":307.815,"text":"從這個幼兒園裡面、托兒所裡面就來教他們母語,你覺得呢?委員只要事實上我們這幾年已經注意到了所以我們已經鼓勵很多幼兒所用沉浸式的幼兒教學目前在台灣大概94個幼兒園已經開始實施足語教學的這個部分"},{"start":310.359,"end":311.461,"text":"全台灣你覺得這個94個成效如何?"},{"start":316.27,"end":341.103,"text":"有些成效已經很明顯就是說因為有這個誠信式幼兒園小孩子可以開口來說主語的比例越來越多了那以前是幾乎就是大概現在10歲以下的小孩子呢他連平常的對話都很困難但是因為有了幼兒園這個用母語教學之後呢這個附贈的情況有一點點改善"},{"start":342.29,"end":368.58,"text":"其實啦齁主委我覺得啦我們復興這個母語啊這個文化有母語文化在的話這個文化才可以傳承啦齁其實我看了這個近代來講啦齁在全世界啊我不知道主委你認不認同啊紐西蘭的毛利語啊它其實是一個非常有齁我們目前看起來算是全世界裡面成功的一個方法吧主委你認不認為"},{"start":369.48,"end":390.992,"text":"的確這幾年我們台灣的很多的族語母語教學我們都參考了紐西蘭國旗成功的範例所以引進來做一個教學的參考的確目前全球是紐西蘭做的是最最最最落實的對啦因為紐西蘭他們的毛利人他們自己有覺醒然後他們自己去推這個我覺得啦 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處長跟我說明應該是沒有他的可能對他剛剛講是喔他剛剛回答我的是喔主委應該傳統的這些飲食文化如果符合健康的話不應該被禁止啊對但食安也符合到不應該被禁止不是主委他剛剛你們處長回答我今年排除類似課程他回答是喔"},{"start":600.669,"end":616.357,"text":"主委我覺得你們要去檢討好不好可以馬上改啊你是重視食安重視這個衛生條件而已不是禁止啊人家查惠委也沒有說禁止啊結果你們就這樣子排除委員的自教也是因為現在很多"},{"start":617.017,"end":638.216,"text":"不農族的傳統的婚禮都還是用殺豬的方式來做 慈安只要注意到就可以了對 我現在重點就是人家沒有禁止 你們自己反而去主動禁止你們應該去看注重如何慈安如何去處理 而不是禁止啦我覺得這個這麼重要的傳統文化 不應該去禁止它啦"},{"start":639.145,"end":660.457,"text":"對我們盡可能在文件站保留我們的文化保留我們的語言包括當然飲食文化也要保留只要符合健康的條件就可以了那今年開始禁止今年財康開始沒多久你們可以趕快回去處理可以開放就要開放只是重視食安不能禁止人家殺豬文化好不好好謝謝謝謝指揮好謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}