{"error":false,"id":["150716"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150716,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150716","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T10:12:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T10:23:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c0110f2cabdfc7c17c9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a6d451b7c3137b8da05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:12:16 - 10:23:31","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":332,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請立法院周秘書長、法務部陳次長、行政院何副秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：黃委員好。"],["陳次長明堂：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為時間關係，不一一問候。2016年蔡英文提出國會改革承諾──人民的國會、開放的國會、專業的國會，我負責任把它列出來，跳票一堆啊，九成以上全部都跳票，唯一有做到的是什麼？唯一有做到的就是我們現在委員會開會的時候，IVOD要轉播，包括現在民進黨主張違憲的聽證調查制度，這個是蔡英文的主張，包括最簡單的正、副院長記名投票這件事情，混了8年，到現在都還沒有過。請教一下秘書長，你會不會認為蔡總統提出的國會改革方案已經不合時宜，要把它丟到垃圾桶裡面去了？"],["周秘書長萬來：在這次總統選舉，大家大概都有共識，希望國會做一個改革，當然國會從82年全面改選以後，也改革過很多次了，但是這個一定是要漸進的，一定要慢慢再去處理，所以各黨團所提的版本，我個人認為都是值得我們再進一步去研究，然後能夠讓它完成。謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長，我很尊敬你，所以你沒有針對問題回答，我還是讓你繼續講下去，如果可能，等一下因時間的關係，在你職權範圍內方便的，儘量針對問題回答。2012年12月13號的時候，司法及法制委員會召開公聽會，那時候公督盟的理事長施信民老師呼籲，社會人士到立法院備詢合法也合憲。請教一下秘書長，對公督盟理事長當年這樣的呼籲，你贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：本人並不反對。"],["黃委員國昌：你並不反對嘛？OK，好。我覺得很奇怪，現在討論到憲法第六十七條，討論到釋字第585號，我覺得民主進步黨是不是失憶了？這些都是民進黨的召委邀社會有關係的人士到立法院來備詢，田秋堇委員，現在當監察委員了；劉建國委員，現在還在本院，是我們的同事；鄭麗君委員。大家全部都邀社會有關係的人士，全部都是民主進步黨邀的，怎麼會現在我要推動國會改革法案的時候，民進黨對這件事情開始大聲抨擊？請教一下秘書長，贊不贊成「立法院沒有聽證、沒有調查，立法院就成了缺了牙的老虎」？贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：我贊成，因為第585號解釋也給立法院有調查權。"],["黃委員國昌：好，很好。秘書長贊不贊成「國會沒有調查權，過去只有中華民國敢這樣講，任何民主國家都不是這樣講，只要是國會要行使職權，不可能不行使調查權」？秘書長，贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：調查權現在是我們的輔助性權力，行使立法委員職權的輔助性權力。"],["黃委員國昌：好。最關鍵的是當初領銜提案的立法委員林佳龍，現在是總統府秘書長，他當初怎麼講的？他說「立委對政府官員的質詢，官員在那10分鐘裡，只要當個木頭人被罵幾句，事後什麼事情也沒有發生，這個質詢沒有辦法產生法律上的拘束力，如果我們對於他的隱匿可以要求對他的失職負起責任，他如果說謊，更是要對在國會殿堂所做的不實證詞或虛偽證據負起刑法上、政治上的責任」，秘書長，贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個學者的解釋上有所不同，藐視國會罪的行為要不要課以刑事責任，這個要由大家在討論的過程中來做決定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。最後我們再往下看，我國現行法制下，官員在國會說謊，請問要負什麼責任？"],["周秘書長萬來：大概他對國會有藐視的情況。"],["黃委員國昌：藐視又怎麼樣？我就是藐視你，我就是要說謊，藐視又怎麼樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：在這方面大概學者的論述不太相同，每一個國家對於藐視國會罪，有些是行政罰，有些是刑事罰，所以這是立法的政策選擇的空間。"],["黃委員國昌：我就show具體的例子，蔡清祥，我在上上屆的國會問他，棄保潛逃罪在哪裡，他敢在委員會裡面講，說已經在司法委員會了，他就任前就送來了，胡說八道！當場被我抓包，我要求議事人員停止時間徹查，議事人員報告：「沒有，沒有送到委員會來」，可以這樣胡扯喔！當初大家在問疫苗，包括疫苗相關的合約、高端的合約多少錢的時候，陳時中當初怎麼講的？他說那個有簽署保密協議，有簽保密協議所以不能講，他講這些話的時間是什麼時候？2021年6月11號。2021年6月11號，這個時間點為什麼重要，一直到這次大選，大家不斷地逼、不斷地逼，終於逼出來了，什麼時候簽保密協議的？2021年7月19號疾管署才跟高端補簽保密協議，之前簽約的時候根本沒有，6月11號他來立法院備詢的時候根本沒有。我們的行政官員在國會裡面堂而皇之地說謊，沒有任何的法律責任，秘書長，請教一下，有哪一個民主先進國家是這麼荒謬的？"],["周秘書長萬來：現在對於國會的藐視大概都有各種不同的規範。"],["黃委員國昌：有各種不同的規範，有哪一個國家像我們中華民國臺灣獨步全球，行政官員在國會裡面說謊都不用負責任的喔？我整理出來，美國國會、英國國會、法國國會的相關規範每一個我全部都整理出來了。問一下法務部次長，次長念法律的，可能會比較熟，在德國調查委員會做虛偽的陳述，有沒有刑責？請按麥克風。"],["陳次長明堂：抱歉。有，老實說我們沒有特別去講，但立法院的報告裡面有。"],["黃委員國昌：德國刑法第一百六十二條第二項，在國會裡面的調查委員會做虛偽陳述的話，有沒有刑事責任？"],["陳次長明堂：有，那個報告裡面有。"],["黃委員國昌：在我國如果最後立法者的決斷，立法裁量的形成有行政罰，也有刑罰，在我自己提的版本，我是直接用行政罰，因為我覺得行政罰比較有效，你要國會決議交給檢察官起訴，檢察官起訴後還要經過審判程序，我老實講整個程序結束以後，都不曉得拖多久了啦。但是這是立法院立法裁量形成的空間，不是行政部門作為被監督的對象，可以在那邊說三道四的，說本院沒有這個權力可以做這樣子的事情。","我們來看一下國外的例子。奧地利前總理在國會聽證會作偽證，結果發生了什麼事情？一審被判刑8個月，緩刑7個月；美國眾議院傳喚納瓦洛（Peter Navarro）出庭作證，他拒絕，納瓦洛依藐視國會罪被起訴，美國聯邦法院判處納瓦洛4個月有期徒刑及9,500美元罰款，3月19號他已經入獄服刑了。","沒有一個民主國家像臺灣這麼荒謬，官員在國會裡面說謊竟然不用承擔任何法律責任，而在面對現在我們的立法院職權行使法要修法的時候，過去高喊國會改革的民主進步黨全部都得了失憶症，全部都得了失憶症，不是在強化國會監督的能量，而是在做國會的自我閹割，在自我弱化國會的監督權力。再請教秘書長，你認為目前我們的立法院職權行使法，按照現行的規定，我們的國會真的有辦法適度地扮演好好地代表人民監督的立場嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：就是目前的現行法實在不夠，所以才需要再修法，因此有委員針對這個部分提案，大家凝聚共識，然後再修法把它補強。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長，非常好，你最起碼有站在本院的立場，知道國會代表的價值跟意義是什麼，而不是像我們的行政部門，今天提這一堆報告出來，基本上就是跟你講不要監督啦！說謊沒有關係啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們下一位請沈發惠委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 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