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10:26:39","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":589,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時15分）謝謝主席，我請部長，部長辛苦了。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有請疾管署副署長。關於寶林茶室的事情，我們用醫生的角度來看，這個事件已經沸沸揚揚好幾天了，我現在要問疾管署，到底是哪一個東西引起這次那麼嚴重的中毒事件？你講的米酵菌酸，或者是佐料，或者是添加物，因為有人說吃那個調味品的時候覺得很苦，現在大家都一頭霧水，到底現在是怎麼樣？"],["羅副署長一鈞：跟委員報告，疾管署在這個事件的角色是協助做人體檢體的收集檢驗，我們也會跟食藥署一起去做環境的稽查，針對人這邊的追蹤也是由我們負責，而食材這邊目前因為都檢驗陰性，還需要再進一步調查，但是在人體這邊已經檢驗14例都是陽性，都是米酵菌酸。"],["蘇委員清泉：米酵菌酸是一個細菌的外毒素，外毒素就是伯克霍爾德這個族裡面一、兩種菌類會產生，那是一個外毒素蛋白質，現在有人說，這個東西就是從國外飄進來的，部長，你也覺得這種講法是很荒唐的吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：可能性不高啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：一天到晚甩鍋，碰到事情就甩鍋，甩給什麼莫三比克、中國、韓國，你乾脆講從日本飄過來的好了啦！亂說！好在日本還卡到一個紅麴，讓我們可以咬一咬。我覺得這些東西它的標準品，我建議我們衛福部部長還有食藥署，很重要的就是要常常去掃描全世界到底有發生什麼特殊的案子，或者是一些群聚的，那些東西的檢查品、標準品、對照品都要必備，署長，這樣你做得到嗎？不要常常都找不到對照品……"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，像相關的這個我們都會做，目前其實我們也都儲備了相當多的標準品。"],["蘇委員清泉：人家彰基為了實驗室都進了一堆。"],["薛部長瑞元：他們現在有7,000多種的標準品。"],["蘇委員清泉：單單這個沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有啦！從來沒有發生過，而且在全世界也是少見，study出來的一些文獻也相當有限，也不是那麼多啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟大家報告，我做過醫師全聯會理事長，所以我看到我們醫師要被告，又是收重症、第一線的，我看了真的是……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！現在已經澄清了，並沒有這樣子，媒體誤導啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這些急重症的醫師、第一線的這樣子被搞，我看他們這兩天陳情跟我講的都說醫生要選擇病人了。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，應該用你的高度來跟媒體說，不要亂報導。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，醫生要選擇病人、要拒絕病人，這樣就完了，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，收重症的醫師，醫院有沒有保護他？我看他們醫院也沒有講話，醫院的院長要打屁股。部長，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我剛剛講了，當事人都出來否認了，他沒有說要告醫師、告醫院，並沒有這麼回事，所以這是媒體誤導，第一個要責備的應該是媒體沒有好好去查證，然後就散布這樣的訊息，這種訊息其實非常傷，因為整個的醫療會覺得……"],["蘇委員清泉：整個士氣都會……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，士氣受打擊，而且會有出現防衛性醫療的可能性，把不好處理的都趕到其他醫院，這個對病人是非常不利的，不但我們應該對媒體加以譴責，全民都應該譴責媒體不實的報導。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長講得非常好，也順便一起幫第一線負責重症的醫師打打氣，我在這裡一定要特別提出來，要捍衛他們的權益，不要再打擊醫護人員。我做醫生都不知道幾年了，我這輩子第一次聽到米酵菌酸。"],["薛部長瑞元：我比你做更久。"],["蘇委員清泉：我第一時間聽到就覺得是亂說、胡說八道，怎麼有這種外毒素？所以查清楚之前，大家都不要亂甩鍋，查清楚之前，大家都冷靜看。倒是我在這裡要呼籲，衛福部也要呼籲，天氣那麼炎熱，所有的東西、食材該冷藏要冷藏，該冷凍要冷凍，該丟棄要丟棄，這些佐料、獨門配方放在室溫三十幾度，一天、兩天、三天不會滋長細菌，我才不相信！"],["薛部長瑞元：因為天氣也正在變，所以我也請食藥署未來衛生稽查要去查的這些項目可能要再嚴格一點。現在外食族實在是很多，所有飲食場所的衛生要求都應該要更升級，尤其以這一次的事件來看。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為臺灣的醫療就是血汗、壓榨，然後大家都過勞，那在這種高壓的情況下出這個事，大家還在罵。部長也是臨床醫師、婦產科醫生，我覺得你要隨時捍衛、打打氣，好不好？我這樣講有道理嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來是最重要的，奇怪！這間公司、這間茶室本身的保險已經過期了，身為房東的百貨公司應該都有保公共責任險吧？這個東西也是食藥署在管嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：保險有兩個部分，一是場所安全的責任險，另外一個是產品的責任險，產品責任險是訂在食安法裡面，所以衛福部會管到這一塊。"],["蘇委員清泉：連保險單有效沒效，也是你們要管？其他經發局之類的單位不就都只是在吃飯而已？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為目前是衛生稽查人員去稽查的時候，會要求看保單是否還有效。"],["蘇委員清泉：關於這一次日本的案子，那個東西有半成品，有的做成品，然後送到臺灣來加工，又做出第二個加工品出來販賣。我看日本的食藥署可能還輸我們，我看他們的能力也沒有多好。"],["薛部長瑞元：不要批評人家。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看他們又慢反應又差，然後小林製藥開個董事會要開好久，出事情還不曉得怎麼善後。到底我們要怎麼求償？有沒有人過世？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前沒有，那在日本好像有5位死亡，日本也有跟我們聯繫，請我們把一些有通知的個案狀況提供給他們，這是在前兩天才收到的一則訊息。有關國內的部分，第一個、有風險的這些產品大概都已經下架，也要求這些公司回收。不管是產品或者原料都暫停、不接受申請進口，現在先擋住在這裡。至於後續食用相關產品有症狀的話，我們會陸續蒐集個案。"],["蘇委員清泉：這種健康食品的原料都是長期侵犯肝腎功能，到最後出事要說是直接相關……"],["薛部長瑞元：很難。"],["蘇委員清泉：在法律上真的非常難，直接相關的就是吃了就死掉，這樣才叫做直接相關。"],["薛部長瑞元：可能適用的都是消保法的無過失責任，就是由企業經營者舉證。"],["蘇委員清泉：消保法這10年來集體求償沒有一件案件處理得漂亮，到最後都不了了之。"],["薛部長瑞元：不一定，看個案。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個也很難舉證到底CCR、腎功能等等受傷多少，都很難量化。"],["薛部長瑞元：但消保法是規定廠商要負舉證責任，舉證它做的產品不會引起這樣的情況。"],["蘇委員清泉：這很難！最後我還是要講，全世界都在發生食安事件，食藥署及衛福部要隨時掃描重大的……"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：有可能我們這邊也會發生。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以該準備的試劑、比對品等等，這一些東西都要隨時準備好，不然像這樣出事情，找不到東西，然後在那邊乾著急，這樣讓食藥署也是很為難，這種錢不能省！"],["薛部長瑞元：也要買得到，有的……"],["蘇委員清泉：彰基都買得到了，你買不到？"],["薛部長瑞元：那是105年買的，到現在快10年了。"],["蘇委員清泉：那到底準不準？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，都沒有拆封。"],["主席：謝謝。等一下劉建國委員質詢結束後，休息5分鐘。","現在請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.45159375,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.99096875,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.37846875,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.83409375,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.81221875,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.570968750000002,"end":30.152843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.38909375,"end":32.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.869718750000004,"end":35.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.77221875,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.40471875,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.68721875,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.196593750000005,"end":58.604093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.447843750000004,"end":60.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.23221875,"end":63.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.29096875,"end":85.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.41409375,"end":86.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.224093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謝謝 謝謝主席我請部長部長辛苦了好 請薛部長還有我們請我們請我們疾管署副署長這個這個寶林茶室的事情我們用醫生的角度來看已經灰灰洋洋已經好幾天了那我現在要問疾管署"},{"start":38.499,"end":60.502,"text":"到底是哪一個東西引起這次那麼嚴重的中毒事件應該你講的什麼米酵素酸啦或者是濁料啦或者是添加物啦因為有人說吃那個調味品的時候很苦啦現在大家一頭霧水"},{"start":62.253,"end":85.584,"text":"到底現在是怎麼樣跟委員報告 疾管署在這個事件的角色是協助做人體檢體這邊的收集檢驗那我們也會跟食藥署一起去做環境的稽查那針對人這邊的追蹤也是由我們負責所以食材這邊目前因為都檢驗陰性還需要再進一步的調查那在人體這邊是已經檢驗14例都是陽性都是米酵菌酸"},{"start":87.284,"end":103.684,"text":"那這個米酵菌酸是一個細菌的外毒素嘛外毒素那就是這個這個伯克霍爾加這個這個組的裡面一兩種菌類會產生那是一個外毒素是蛋白質的"},{"start":105.276,"end":133.676,"text":"那現在有人說這個東西就是從國外飄進來的部長你也覺得這種講法是很荒唐的吧可能性不高一天到晚甩鍋碰到事情就甩鍋甩給什麼墨山、鼻刻、中國乾脆你講從日本飄過來就好了啦韓國、歐北共好在跟日本給我卡了一個紅麴讓我們可以搖一搖我覺得啦這些東西齁"},{"start":135.455,"end":155.422,"text":"他的標準品我建議我們衛福部部長還有食藥署很重要的就是要常常去掃描全世界到底發生什麼特殊的案子啦或者是一些群聚的啦那些東西的檢查品、標準品、對照品都要必備啦 署長 這樣做得到嗎"},{"start":162.475,"end":174.005,"text":"報告委員像相關這個我們都會做對那目前其實我們也都儲備了相當多的一些標準品您的裝機都為了要實驗室都進了一堆人家現在有7000多種的標準品單單這個沒有"},{"start":177.686,"end":201.716,"text":"這個沒有啦 從來沒有發生過而且在全世界也是少見的嘛那你那個study出來的一些文獻也相當有限也不是那麼多啦我也跟大家報告我這個月議事前那個理事長所以我看到你議事說要被告我又說重症第一線的我看了真的是沒有啦 他現在已經澄清了啦並沒有這樣子啦媒體誤導啦"},{"start":203.453,"end":216.162,"text":"所以這些集中症的醫師第一線的這樣子被搞齁我看他們現在這兩天陳情跟我講的都說他現在要捐白人委員應該用你的高度來跟媒體說不可以亂白"},{"start":223.49,"end":241.859,"text":"對 醫生要捐美人要拒絕病人這完了 對不對再來做重症的醫師醫院有沒有保護他我看他們醫院也沒有講話醫院的院長要打屁股部長 你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":243.139,"end":264.335,"text":"對,所以我剛剛講了這個當事人都出來否認了他沒有說要告醫師、告醫院並沒有這麼回事所以這是媒體誤導所以第一個要苛責的、要責備的應該是媒體沒有好好去查證然後就散佈這樣子的訊息這種訊息其實非常傷"},{"start":265.376,"end":285.967,"text":"因為整個的醫療會覺得...整個市區...對,市區受打擊而且會有出現防衛性醫療的可能性叫派出力的都把我拔回去這個對我們的那個病人是非常不利的所以不但是就是說我們去應該對媒體這樣譴責其實全民都應該譴責這個媒體"},{"start":290.533,"end":312.57,"text":"這個不時的報導部長這樣講得非常好也順便一起幫我們做第一線重症的醫師跟他們打打氣我這裡一定要特別提出來要捍衛他們的權益不要再去打擊醫護人員我跟你講這個什麼米酵菌酸我做醫生做我們也做幾年了要省了"},{"start":313.407,"end":318.653,"text":"我第一次聽到我第一次聽到第一次聽到我就說這是亂講的福送八道德什麼這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種這種"},{"start":335.991,"end":353.303,"text":"這種天氣那麼炎熱齁所有的東西食材該冷藏要冷藏該冷凍要冷凍該丟去要丟去那這些佐料啊、配製品、獨門、配方啊放在室溫上三十幾度一天兩天三天那個會滋長滋養滋長細菌我才不相信呢"},{"start":354.744,"end":382.912,"text":"所以這部分的話我天氣也正在變了所以我請食藥署在未來的這個衛生稽查的部分的那些要去查的這些項目的話可能要再嚴格一點因為所有因為現在外食組實在是很多啦所有的這一些這個飲食場所的話的衛生要求應該還要更升級啦尤其以這一次的事件來看"},{"start":384.011,"end":407.511,"text":"因為臺灣醫療就是血汗、壓榨然後大家都過勞那在這種高壓的情況下然後出這個事就大家還在罵我覺得部長你自己也是臨床醫師、婦產科醫生我是覺得你要隨時要捍衛、要打打氣好不好我們要講有力嗎?有"},{"start":409.372,"end":429.615,"text":"再來,相中了,奇怪耶,這間公司,這間茶室本身去保險的已經過去了,然後這個收購的,還有那個二手的房東,什麼什麼什麼什麼,這個都有保公公責任險吧,那這個東西也事實上是在管嗎?"},{"start":431.43,"end":449.737,"text":"他有兩個部分保險一個是安全這個場所安全的責任險另外一個是產品的責任險產品的責任險的部分的話是定在食安法裡面所以衛福部會管到這一塊阿連那個保險端有沒有也你要管喔"},{"start":451.383,"end":454.324,"text":"目前的話是我們的衛生稽查人員去做稽查的時候會要求看這個保單是否還是有效"},{"start":466.414,"end":487.4,"text":"那這一次日本的這個案子齁他那個東西有辦成品然後有都做成成品然後送到台灣來台灣就加工然後又產就做出來第二個加工品出來販賣那現在日本那邊到底我看日本的食藥署可能就輸爛囉輸爛我看他年齡不太好我感覺啦"},{"start":495.252,"end":508.885,"text":"我看他也是又慢然後環境又差然後那個小林製藥開個董事會要開好久齁出事情了還不曉得要怎麼善後那到底我們這邊怎麼球場有沒有人過世"},{"start":511.728,"end":526.941,"text":"目前是沒有在日本那邊好像是有五位有五個死亡日本那邊也有跟我們這邊做了聯繫請我們把我們的有一些個案通知"},{"start":527.381,"end":527.661,"text":"臺灣菸酒股份"},{"start":552.734,"end":566.545,"text":"不接受這個申請進口所以大概現在先擋住在這裡那至於後續的有這種使用相關的產品而有症狀的這些的話那我們就陸續收集這個個案"},{"start":570.121,"end":598.58,"text":"這種這種健康食品的原料齁都是長期侵犯你的肝腎功能這個沒有應該到最後出事你要說直接相關齁在法律上真的非常難直接相關就是直接直接相關所以可能在用的都是消保法無過失責就舉證的就是在企業間消保法這10年來幫我們集體求償我看沒有一件案件漂亮的"},{"start":604.664,"end":612.029,"text":"這個也很難舉證說到底受傷CCR什麼腎功能等等受傷多少那個都很難量化的"},{"start":612.994,"end":631.101,"text":"但是這個消保法舉證責任是廠商要舉證我做的產品不會印去這樣這很難的啦好最後我還是要講食藥署還有衛生部你們全世界在發生這種食安事件啊你要隨時掃描重大的有可能會發生啊"},{"start":632.481,"end":654.544,"text":"所以這個該準備的試劑啦比醉瓶啦什麼什麼什麼什麼Gmax什麼等等這一些東西的東西都要隨時準備好了不然像這樣出事情找不到東西然後這邊趕著召集這樣這樣食藥署也這樣為難啦所以一定要這種錢不能省不能省好不好"},{"start":656.105,"end":656.125,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}