{"error":false,"id":["150724"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150724,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150724","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T10:26:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T10:37:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:40","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c066e72b23b5e30b2225a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a66974ba0f13b380455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:26:46 - 10:37:26","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時26分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。這幾天的米酵菌酸中毒事件，其實基層很多人很擔心，尤其是大家最喜歡吃的粿仔條、粄條，現在變得不敢吃。傳統市場原本在賣自己帶回去煮的麵條、粿仔條、粄條，這幾天全部都滯銷，所以我想請教部長，目前為止，還沒有很確定是什麼樣的東西造成中毒嗎？還是已經能確定是因為粿條的關係嗎？已經確定了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：大概是BKA，也就是米酵菌酸是主要引起中毒的物質，相對可以確定。"],["黃委員秀芳：它是來自於哪一個……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是來自哪裡的話，第一個，把這些有症狀的個案綜合分析，共同點就是有吃過粿條，所以來源大概就是這個。至於這一些粿條到底是經過什麼樣的程序產生米酵菌酸，目前還不知道，所以現在調查的重點會是在這個地方，也是檢調現在進行調查的重點，想要把這個事情釐清。原料進來之後，到底這個廚師有什麼樣的操作，然後保存到底又是什麼樣等等，必須要把這些調查清楚，也許才比較有可能推測出到底這個事件是怎麼來的。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們知道要滿足這個毒素的生成可能有幾個條件，第一個、可能要有唐菖蒲伯克氏菌，這個菌株要有適合的環境才有辦法繁殖，產生米酵菌酸。我想請教部長，以目前可見的國人飲食當中，其實在一些環境或者是烹調的環境當中，都有可能利於這個菌種生成，怎麼樣避免？"],["薛部長瑞元：細菌能夠產生米酵菌酸這個物質，是在很多條件之下才會有的，第一個就是……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以要怎麼避免？因為現在大家都很擔心，甚至有的連麵都不太敢吃，就是說先停一陣子，先一陣子不要吃，所以我覺得真的要趕快釐清，或者是讓民眾知道要怎麼預防或怎麼避免。"],["薛部長瑞元：至少到目前的調查結果，第一，粿粉來源的廠商那邊的檢驗通通都沒有米酵菌酸，所以這一個先排除，就是排除大規模來源的部分有這個東西，那麼會產生米酵菌酸，應該是這些粿粉到了寶林茶室之後的操作過程才產生的，目前第一個是可以這樣推測，所以一般粿粉可能就不用太過緊張，不過他到底是怎麼操作的？當然從研究上知道有一些東西，比方可能跟椰子、玉米等這些比較容易產生的原料，而粿粉的成分裡面的確也有，它的澱粉有可能是玉米的澱粉……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以跟米到底有沒有關係？一般國人吃的米……"],["薛部長瑞元：關連性可能不大啦！不過因為粿粉裡面也有用到在來……"],["黃委員秀芳：玉米粉？"],["薛部長瑞元：在來米粉也有用到……"],["黃委員秀芳：喔！在來米粉。"],["薛部長瑞元：玉米粉也有用到，小麥澱粉也有用到，這一些都有用到，但並不表示有這些混在一起，就一定會產生，所以到底中間還有什麼樣的操作以及保存問題？很重要的是保存，因為這個保存條件，從所謂的唐菖蒲伯克氏菌要產生米酵菌酸，通常溫度會是在22度到33度中間……"],["黃委員秀芳：可是一般臺灣的餐廳或者小吃店，他的烹調或者工作的場域可能就是這個溫度啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是還有一個是中性的PH值，如果有加入酸、鹼的，就比較不容易。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這樣看起來好像條件還蠻寬鬆的，如果說只有符合這樣的條件就可能產生，那我相信國內不會只有這麼一件，應該還有其他的……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得應該還有其他的原因，應該把這個原因趕快找出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：譬如是不是溫度忽高忽低，比較容易產生這些，目前就是在調查這個。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望可以趕快……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！我們也希望啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：儘快啦！因為國人對於這個是真的還蠻擔心的，尤其是賣粄條、粿條的，大家嚇到都不敢吃了，所以希望能夠儘速釐清……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們也希望可以儘速。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，另外，農業部農糧署特別提到，就是米酵菌酸應該正名為椰毒亞型，因為這個跟米可能沒有什麼太大關連，衛福部是不是可能針對這部分來釐清？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分我們不會反對啦！到底當時所謂米酵菌酸這個翻譯是從哪裡引進來的，我也不清楚，因為從它的英文原名Bongkrekic acid也對不太起來啊！"],["黃委員秀芳：所以米酵菌酸是誰……"],["薛部長瑞元：我不知道。"],["黃委員秀芳：你不知道？那為什麼一開始就講是米酵菌酸？"],["薛部長瑞元：有可能是從中國那邊的譯名過來的，因為他們發生過……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們也就一直沿用？一開始就說是米酵菌酸，可能從上上禮拜開始就一直講是米酵菌酸。"],["薛部長瑞元：可能在文獻上有這樣的翻譯，我們就把它引用進來。"],["黃委員秀芳：就直接翻？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，對。"],["黃委員秀芳：那跟米也沒有太大的直接關連，所以針對這一次事件，農糧署希望是不是可以正名？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會請專家、委員會再去討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：再去討論一下，因為很多民眾看到是米酵菌酸，都會質疑是不是跟米製作的食物有關，大家會擔心，國人吃米，包括米飯、米製品真的非常多，我們也不希望因此而造成一些影響。除了希望儘速釐清原因外，未來如何預防，我覺得很重要，既然這個菌或者產生米酵菌酸已經在臺北的這家寶林茶室有案例了，未來如果環境適合的話，是不是這個菌也可能開始繁殖而在臺灣生存下來？我覺得這是很可怕的事情，希望真的要儘速釐清。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，一方面是釐清這個確切的原因，但是也跟委員報告，原因的調查是否可以真的那麼精確地查出來，這個也不一定，但是至少有兩件事情要去處理，第一個就是一般像這種粿條的產品要怎麼樣保存……"],["黃委員秀芳：可能要有一個指引。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，要有一個指引，這個我們會來做，其實也不只是粿條，像現在天氣熱了，很多食品怎麼保存會是一個比較妥善的方法，這個我們會來做。第二個就是像粿條這樣一個特殊東西，在餐飲店裡面，保存跟操作的SOP、注意事項等等，應該要有所依循，讓這些餐飲業者都能夠follow。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我們希望你們趕快訂下來，然後讓業者有所依循。最後30秒時間，我想請教有關我們鄰近國家、中國的百日咳案例。針對鄰近國家已經有3萬多個百日咳案例，請問，臺灣目前的狀況怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是2例，其實中國跟臺灣有點不太一樣，因為我們疫苗打得schedule跟中國不太一樣，我們會在入學之前多打一次，大概會比較有防護……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以也沒有病例上升的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前沒有。"],["黃委員秀芳：目前沒有。好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請劉建國委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.11846875,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.66534375,"end":23.554718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.63909375,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.57596875,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.219718750000006,"end":62.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.43471875,"end":65.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.23596875,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.15409375,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.14534375000001,"end":83.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.11909375,"end":89.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.38846875,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.28284375000001,"end":99.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.94784375,"end":100.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.11659375,"end":113.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.03846875,"end":125.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.39221875000001,"end":119.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.19721875,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.01971875000001,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.28409375,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.16034375,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.53909375,"end":160.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.29284375,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.16971875000002,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.26596875,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":186.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.48284375,"end":190.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.00534375,"end":196.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.86534375000002,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.50221875000003,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.75534375,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.96784375000001,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.44346875000002,"end":229.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.79721875,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.48034375,"end":233.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.83409375000002,"end":234.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.57659375000003,"end":240.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.97221875000002,"end":247.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.75659375,"end":244.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.45221875000001,"end":251.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.43471875000003,"end":252.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.48534375000003,"end":251.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.45971875,"end":263.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.75346875,"end":272.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.69409375000004,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.01409375000003,"end":270.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.29221875,"end":275.65034375},{"s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我們請部長好 有請部長委員好"},{"start":17.694,"end":35.161,"text":"部長好,部長這幾天的這個米酵菌酸的這個中毒事件其實基層很多人很擔心尤其是每次這個大家最喜歡吃的粿仔條、板條粿仔條大家知不知道傳統市場原本在賣麵的在賣麵的在那個賣"},{"start":38.042,"end":38.082,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":58.158,"end":77.877,"text":"是已經很能確定是因為果條是因為果條的關係嗎是已經確定了嗎大概是BK也就是說米消菌酸是一個主要的重引起中毒的物質是這個相對是可以確定了是那他是來自於哪"},{"start":78.217,"end":101.603,"text":"但是來自哪裡的話第一個從這些有症狀的個案那把它綜合去做分析它的共同點就是有吃果條所以大概來源就是這個至於說這一些果條到底是經過什麼樣的程序那產生這個米酵菌酸這個目前還不知道"},{"start":102.223,"end":115.783,"text":"所以大概現在調查的重點會是在這個地方那也是檢調他們現在進行調查的一個重點他想要想要把這個事情釐清就是說那個原料一百的料"},{"start":118.126,"end":134.581,"text":"這廚師有做什麼操作?然後他的保存到底又是什麼樣子?等等這些必須要把它調查清楚,也許才比較有可能推測出來說,那到底這個事件怎麼來的?"},{"start":135.362,"end":150.005,"text":"所以我們知道說要滿足這個毒素的生成可能有幾個條件就第一個你可能要有這個唐昌浦伯克氏菌這個菌株那也要它適合的這個環境才有辦法"},{"start":150.486,"end":150.626,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":182.287,"end":197.034,"text":"其實這個細菌能夠產生米酵菌酸這個物質是在很多條件之下才會有所以要怎麼去避免?"},{"start":197.854,"end":214.389,"text":"因為現在大家是很擔心看到麵現在是甚至有的連麵都不太敢吃就是說先動一陣也好先不要吃一陣所以我覺得真的要趕快釐清或者是要怎麼讓我們的民眾怎麼知道說那怎麼去預防或怎麼去避免"},{"start":215.009,"end":232.614,"text":"那從現在至少到目前調查了結果第一個就是說來源的這個果粉它的來源廠商那邊的檢驗通通都是沒有米酵菌酸所以這個先排除說大規模的在來源的部分的話有這個東西"},{"start":234.074,"end":250.893,"text":"所以它會產生米酵菌酸的話應該是這一些果粉到了寶林茶室之後它的操作過程才產生的目前第一個是可以這樣做一個推測所以一般的果粉可能就不用太過緊張不過"},{"start":253.516,"end":274.706,"text":"他這個到底怎麼樣去操作當然從研究上面有一些嘛比如說他可能需要跟有一些是椰子啦玉米啦等等這些比較容易有果粉的成分裡面的確也有他的澱粉有可能是玉米所以跟米到底有沒有關係"},{"start":276.818,"end":304.135,"text":"關聯性可能不大不過因為果粉裡面也有用到再來米粉再來米粉也有用到玉米粉也有用到小麥澱粉也有用到所以這一些都有用到但是並不表示說有這些混在一起的話就一定會產生所以到底還有中間有什麼樣的一個操作以及保存很重要的是保存這個保存條件因為從這個"},{"start":307.037,"end":329.537,"text":"這個所謂的糖酸薄克氏菌要產生米酵菌酸通常會是在溫度是22到33度所以一般的其實一般臺灣國人在那個餐廳也好或者可能在一般的那個小吃他的烹調的或者是他在工作的這個場域可能就是這一個溫度啊"},{"start":330.739,"end":354.413,"text":"但是有一個是中性的PH值,所以如果產生、產業減的話就比較不容易當然這樣看起來好像還是條件還是蠻寬鬆的那如果說只有符合這樣子的條件就可以產生的話我相信就國內不會只有這樣子一件,所以應該還有其他的"},{"start":354.693,"end":380.444,"text":"所以我覺得應該還有其他的原因應該把這個原因趕快找出來溫度的忽高忽低也比較容易產生這些目前就是在調查這個好我們希望說趕快盡快對因為國人可能對於這個是真的還蠻擔心的那尤其這個賣果條的賣那個板條過了條大家怕就不敢吃"},{"start":382.285,"end":405.361,"text":"對所以我們希望說能夠盡速盡速把它釐清希望盡速可以是好那我想請教就是說那個農業部農糧署他們有特別提到就是說米酵菌酸他這個這個應該是可以要把它證明就是說野毒亞型那是不是這個跟跟米可能沒有什麼太大的關聯所以"},{"start":407.622,"end":422.267,"text":"我不知道衛福部是不是可能針對這部分來做一個釐清我們不會反對因為到底當時所謂米消菌酸這個範例是從哪裡引進來的也不清楚因為你要從他的英文的原名"},{"start":424.968,"end":450.275,"text":"所以米酵菌酸是誰?你不知道為什麼一開始就講米酵菌酸?所以你們也就一直沿用就是說一開始說米酵菌酸可能從上上禮拜開始就一直講說是米酵菌酸因為可能就在文獻上面有這樣子的一個翻譯所以我們就把它引用進來就直接翻"},{"start":450.835,"end":451.055,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":474.835,"end":499.185,"text":"真的也是米飯米製品真的是非常的多那也不希望說因為這樣子然後造成這個一些影響那接下來就是我希望就是說能夠盡速把這個原因釐清好原因釐清之後未來怎麼去預防預防其實我覺得也很重要既然如果說這個菌或者是產生這個米酵菌酸已經在這個"},{"start":501.025,"end":519.683,"text":"臺北這一家寶林茶室已經有那未來會不會也有可能如果這個環境也是適合的話是不是這個菌也是開始會繁殖那在臺灣就這樣子這個生存下來所以我覺得這是很可怕的事情那我們希望說真的要盡速去把它釐清"},{"start":520.804,"end":542.402,"text":"一方面是釐清這個確確的原因但是也跟我們報告這個原因的調查是否可以真的是那麼精確的把它查出來這個也不一定但是至少有兩件事情要去處理第一個就是一般的像這種果條這樣子的產品的保存要怎麼樣保存"},{"start":543.183,"end":557.403,"text":"可能要有一個指引這個我們會來做其實也不只是果條其實像現在天氣熱了很多這些食品要怎麼保存是一個比較妥善的方法這個我們會來做"},{"start":558.945,"end":574.637,"text":"那第二個的話就是說這些像這種火條這樣子一個特殊的東西在餐飲店裡面應該他的SOP是怎麼樣保存跟操作這些注意的事項應該也要有"},{"start":576.678,"end":587.709,"text":"有所依詢讓這些餐飲業者能夠．所以我們希望你們趕快把它定下來然後讓這些業者有一個依詢另外部長最後幾分這個最後30秒時間我想請教就是說這個有關我們鄰近國家這個中國這邊有這個白日渴"},{"start":595.396,"end":607.761,"text":"那我想請教就是說針對這個臨近國家有這個百日咳的這個案例已經3萬多例啦那我想請教臺灣目前的這個狀況是怎樣"},{"start":609.449,"end":634.622,"text":"目前是兩例其實中國跟臺灣有點不太一樣因為我們的疫苗打的跟中國不太一樣我們會在入學之前入學前會多打一劑所以大概會比較有保護所以也沒有說有病例上升的那種狀況目前沒有好 謝謝"},{"start":640.225,"end":640.246,"text":"好．"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}