{"error":false,"id":["150726"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150726,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150726","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[19,23],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T10:33:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T10:43:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c07f2c30cac0b3fcf10ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6e303a7df215740635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:33:30 - 10:43:06","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時33分）謝謝主席。請龔主委和胡政次。"],["主席：我們再請兩位，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：兩位好。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席先講結論，本席支持高速鐵路全島應該好好地來想想看，本席也支持花東建設，本席更支持交通平權。好！我先講結論的原因是因為我要講我反對什麼，我反對用特別條例來處理國家所有的重大建設或者交通建設。","上個禮拜針對花東快的部分本席已經質詢一次了，我們憲法規定行政權和立法權是分開的，這個叫權力分立，換言之，根據憲法所賦予立法院立法委員的立法權，我們該監督行政權，但是我們不可以凌駕行政權，如果國家所有交通建設、重大建設我們都列一個特別條例，這種方法可行，我上個禮拜也跟王部長講：「這一步如果搞得通，你半夜就要打電話給我，本席會提大臺中建設發展條例，差不多1兆，你們就趕快幫我做好，我會跟你們說項目在哪裡，都幫我做好。」這一步如果可以通，我上個禮拜就講過了。全島的高鐵本席覺得你們應該去評估，這是專業，專業的部分我等一下再來講，但是如果立法院可以用特別條例來幹這個事情，那本席接下來就會提，如果可行，這種案件如果可以通過，本席就提全島捷運建設特別條例，交通平權耶！楊瓊瓔主席他的選區沒有捷運，本席海線的選區也沒有捷運，我們海線的鄉親也交稅，為什麼我們沒有捷運？富癸委員住在恆春，高鐵不就要開到恆春去？平權嘛！交通平權，每一個地方都要有高鐵、有捷運。再來是機場，很多地方沒有機場，交通平權啊！我們應該每個地方都要有機場。接下來是國發會的科學園區，地方要均衡發展，全臺灣各縣市，最好各鄉鎮都有科學園區，這個叫平權嗎？可以這樣幹嗎？本席其實不反對說你們要循專業、正常、現在的程序下去評估，該有科學園區就應該讓它有科學園區，該有捷運就讓它有捷運，該有機場就應該讓它有機場，但是這個建立在一個專業理性的評估。","好！那什麼叫專業理性的評估？為什麼交通平權，我們還必須要一個專業、理性、尊重民意的評估？我想兩位很清楚，如果我們今天，本席說我也同意，我們應該來瞭解全臺灣的高速鐵路要怎麼做，你們下一步一定是跟宜蘭、屏東一樣，先發高鐵延伸宜蘭、高鐵延伸屏東的可行性評估，對不對？可行性評估，經過專家學者、各地的意見，整合完之後，如果覺得可行，那第二步是不是要進行綜合規劃？現在高速鐵路的延伸，宜蘭跟屏東進行到什麼階段？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：綜合規劃。"],["蔡委員其昌：就是綜合規劃，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，綜合規劃過了，那接下來要進入什麼？你要做環評，因為臺灣還有很多的環團，它對於臺灣環境生態的影響到底巨不巨大、有沒有衝擊、會不會破壞臺灣的環境，這個叫環評。我們要把環團、把地方的意見都整合了，環境影響評估過了，那接下來是什麼？來，回答我。"],["胡次長湘麟：報告委員，我們現在的綜合規劃跟環評是同樣一個程序在處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有關係、沒有關係，我只是把程序……"],["胡次長湘麟：這個走完了之後，在行政院奉核定之後，我們就來辦理設計施工……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，就細部設計編列預算下去施工，是不是這樣子？"],["胡次長湘麟：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個叫做重大建設的程序啦！任何一個重大建設都必須要走這樣的程序，哪怕本席過去在當副院長的時候，我跟你們交通部、國發會要求包括大臺中的建設、包括我們的捷運藍線、鐵路雙軌化，你們還是一樣要走這個程序，不會因為本席是執政黨也是副院長，所以你們就說好，一定要做，如果你們一定要做，這就叫政治考量，因為你看我是副院長，看我是執政黨，可是站在你們交通專業的立場，任何一個交通建設可能影響的層面，你們都必須要顧及、都通過了才可以做，對不對？這個就是交通平權跟專業、理性、尊重民意，甚至只要交通建設經過原住民的部落，你還要開部落會議通過，因為這是法定的程序，你要尊重原住民的意見，到底願不願意讓鐵路過去、讓道路過去，這個叫做專業意見。","所以如果沒有經過這個程序，我們光談平權、光談支持，本席很支持嘛！上個禮拜我有講過花東的建設，花東人要有一條安全回家的路，等多久了，當然支持，為什麼要反對它？全臺灣各地有高鐵不好嗎？很好啊！剛剛基隆的林委員也在問你啊！基隆為什麼沒有高鐵？平權啊！各地要均衡發展啊！基隆人不是人嗎？我也問你同樣的問題，我們大臺中每一個地方，沒有捷運的區域占大多數，本席的選區甚至在這10年內才有公車，過去連公車都沒有，經過本席一直要求，林市長的時代才把我們大安區，不是臺北那個大安，是臺中的大安，才有公車進去啊！平權很讚，本席很支持，但是平權如果沒有建立在這個程序下，立法委員在立法院透過特別條例就可以來做這個，那就天下大亂了。10年要叫你通過，本席看能不能叫你5年通過不是更好，這裡面寫10年，看能不能5年嘛！為什麼不行你們要講清楚嘛！你們要跟社會大眾說明清楚嘛！抓一個時間過就是強迫，如果環境影響沒過要怎麼辦？那不就違法了，因為條例寫10年，要是10年沒有過，你不就要跟環團講說不行，立法院說10年一定要過，你們環團一定要允許才可以，不通啦！這叫做不通啦！不能這樣亂搞啦！","這個就是本席一直在提的事情，我都支持，我們委員都為地方在講話，每一個委員都有他的立場，都希望家鄉繁榮進步，本席也一樣，但是如果國家這個程序你沒有把它做好，國家這個程序大家不遵守，立法委員直接提案，立法院多數暴力把它表決通過，逼你行政部門做，我想請問大家憲法權力分立的原則在哪裡？我做立法委員，我就提案就好了，只要國會多數，我就硬闖、硬幹，國會多數暴力我就逼你一定要做，那行政權要幹什麼？憲法可以允許這樣幹嗎？可以允許都不需要押時間給你，不需要到底可行性可不可行、環境可不可行、原住民朋友的意見可不可行、他們同不同意，然後你就一定要在幾年內通過，這個就是本席為什麼先講結論，本席絕對支持交通平權，我也支持花東重大建設，但是我們一定要在法律，從憲法到相關程序、法律上面，才有辦法把這些事情一一來完成。所以本席已經把結論講完了，時間也超過了，我覺得你們要認真來思考這個問題，要讓所有的國人跟立法院同仁都知道，站在公務同仁的立場，為什麼我必須要把這些事情做好，沒有人反對建設啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請徐富癸委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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那什麼叫專業理性的評估為什麼交通平權我們還必須要一個專業理性尊重民意的評估我想兩位很清楚"},{"start":206.431,"end":226.686,"text":"如果我們今天本席說我也同意我們應該來了解全台灣的高速鐵路要怎麼做你們下一步一定是跟基隆、屏東一樣先發高鐵延伸不是基隆高鐵延伸宜蘭高鐵延伸宜蘭高鐵延伸屏東的可行性評估對不對"},{"start":228.203,"end":257.014,"text":"可行性評估經過專家學者各地的意見整合完之後如果覺得可行那第二步是不是要進行叫做綜合規劃那現在鐵路高速鐵路的延伸對於宜蘭跟屏東進行到什麼階段就是綜合規劃對不對好綜合規劃過了那接下來要進入什麼你要做環評嘛因為台灣還有很多的環團"},{"start":258.766,"end":276.763,"text":"他對於對於台灣這個環境生態的影響到底巨不巨大有沒有衝擊會不會破壞台灣的環境好啦這個叫環評我們要把環團把地方的意見都整合了環境影響評估過了那接下來是什麼來回答我我來回答"},{"start":280.424,"end":305.154,"text":"報委員我們現在的綜合規劃跟環評是同樣一個程序沒有關係沒有關係我只是把程序告訴你可是這個完了走完了之後在行政院奉合訂之後我們後來就辦理設計施工對就西部設計編列預算下去施工是不是這樣子這個叫做重大建設的程序啦任何一個重大建設都必須要走這樣的程序哪怕本席過去在當副院長的時候"},{"start":306.534,"end":325.662,"text":"我跟你們交通部國安會要求包括大台中的建設包括我們的捷運南線、鐵路、雙軌化你們還是一樣要走這個程序嘛不會因為本席是執政黨也是副院長所以你們就說好一定會走如果你們一定會走這個在政治考量因為你看我是副院長看我是執政黨嘛"},{"start":326.809,"end":351.725,"text":"可是站在你們交通專業立場你們必須任何一個交通建設可能影響的層面都必須要顧及都通過了才可以做對不對這個就是交通平權跟專業理性尊重名利甚至你過了原住民部落你只要交通建設經過原住民的部落你還要開部落會議通過因為這是法定的程序嘛"},{"start":352.981,"end":375.915,"text":"你要尊重原住民的意見阿 到底願不願意讓鐵路過去 讓道路過去阿 這個叫做專業意見所以如果沒有經過這個程序 我們光談平權 光談支持 本席很支持嘛我講過 上個禮拜我講過 花東的建設 花東人要有一條安全回家的路等多久了 當然支持 為什麼要反對他"},{"start":376.875,"end":406.375,"text":"全台灣各地有高鐵不好嗎?很好啊!剛剛那個林委員基隆的他也在問你啊基隆為什麼沒有高鐵平權啊各地要均衡發展啊基隆人不是人嗎?我也問你同樣的問題嘛我們大台中每一個地方沒有捷運的區域占大多數啊本席的選區啊甚至啊在這幾年內啊十年內才有公車的啊"},{"start":407.556,"end":431.536,"text":"連過去連公車都沒有阿本席一直要求阿林市長的時代才把我們大安區不是台北那個大安喔是台中的大安喔才有公車進去阿平泉阿很讚阿本席很支持阿但是平泉如果沒有建立在這個情況下立法委員在立法院透過特別條例就可以來做這個阿就天下大亂阿嘛"},{"start":432.712,"end":445.708,"text":"10年要叫你通過本市最好看可以5年叫你通過不更好?這裏面寫10年嘛,看可以5年嘛,為什麼不行?你講得清楚嘛,你們要跟社會大眾說明清楚嘛"},{"start":447.291,"end":468.008,"text":"抓一個時間過就是強迫,你如果環境影響沒過要怎麼辦?你不就違法?你不就因為條例寫10年啊?你要是10年沒有過,你不就要跟環團講說不行,立法院說10年一定要過,你們環境一定要允許才可以?不通啦!這叫做不通啦!不能這樣亂舞啦!"},{"start":474.873,"end":502.703,"text":"這個就是本席一直在提這個事情我都支持這些我們委員都為地方在講話每一個委員都有他的立場都希望為家鄉繁榮進步本席也一樣嘛但是如果國家這個程序你沒有把它做好國家這個程序大家不遵守立法委員直接提案立法院多數暴力把它表決通過逼你行政部門做我想請問大家憲法權利分立的原則在哪裡"},{"start":504.636,"end":529.554,"text":"我做立法委員我就提案就只要國會多數我就硬闖硬幹國會多數暴力我就逼你一定要做那你行政權要幹什麼?憲法可以允許這樣幹嗎?可以允許都不需要壓時間給你不需要任何到底這個可行性可不可行環境可不可行原住民朋友的意見可不可行他們同不同意然後呢你就一定要幾年就一定要通過"},{"start":531.77,"end":551.298,"text":"這個就是本席為什麼我先講結論本席絕對支持交通平權我也支持花東重大建設但是我們一定要在法律從憲法到相關程序法律上面這個才有辦法把這些事情一一來完成"},{"start":552.634,"end":552.654,"text":"好!謝謝!"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}