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10:48:21","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時37分）謝謝主席。有請部長跟署長。"],["主席：好，部長、署長請。"],["劉委員建國：部長，上個禮拜四我們在這邊有特別針對寶林茶室的保險問題請教過部長，依據食安法第十三條規定，寶林茶室應該要有保險，包括食品及公共意外責任險，但是我們知道這個保險去年10月就過期了，也沒有續保，現在臺北市衛生局確定要針對保險這塊開罰200萬……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，他已經罰了。"],["劉委員建國：對，已經罰了，但罰得到嗎？不曉得？後面跟部長討論時，我們再來double check。其實上週我還在猜，是不是因為遠百A13的寶林茶室3月底就要結束撤櫃，所以才會便宜行事，在保單到期後就沒有再續約，導致未來消費者可能會求償無門的窘境，上禮拜四我就擔心這個事情。現在臺北市政府自己再去做稽查，結果不只遠百這一家分店沒有，饒河店、松山店、臺北車站店的保險也都因為全部欠費未繳而喪失保約，這是他們自己查出來的，對不對？好，現在臺北市政府才要一一針對這些沒有保險的店面開罰，你不會覺得很離譜嗎？真的很離譜！為什麼連一個基本的保險，而且是法律有規範的，就是第十三條，怎麼連一個預警機制都沒有？這是其一。其二，這次食物中毒事件之後，我覺得臺北市政府衛生局的同仁都很辛苦，但好像都在做基本功，你看他們去稽查，3月29號浩浩蕩蕩跑去遠百A13美食街稽查，27家業者中，發現有3家衛生環境缺失，當然這是稽查重點，但也發現還有9家業者該登錄「非登不可」，卻沒有登錄以及未提供體檢或進貨單，這類的行政缺失是很明顯的，該登錄「非登不可」沒有登錄的，有沒有違反食安法？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["劉委員建國：違反第幾條？要怎麼罰？"],["薛部長瑞元：違反第八條第二項要依第四十八條處罰。"],["劉委員建國：要處罰多少？最低多少、最高多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：也是3萬到300萬。"],["劉委員建國：也是3萬到300萬，但我沒有看到臺北市政府要開罰。"],["薛部長瑞元：它有命其限期改善，前面有一個緩衝的處理。"],["劉委員建國：3月30日臺北市突擊臺北市內的百貨美食街，又稽查39家，除了衛生環境缺失外，又發現1家未投保產品責任險，剛剛是27家就有三分之一，有9家。它3月30日稽查39家，又發現有1家未投保產品責任險，請部長再看這一張圖，37家百貨公司及各大賣場的美食街要在1個月內全部清查，我們當然支持，不過你看稽查重點：第一、風險食材保存溫度與環境。第二、產品責任保險是否有效。第三、設備環境清潔。第一點、第二點到現場稽查，我覺得當然是必要，但是產品責任保險要到現場去稽查嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：要看他們的保單。"],["劉委員建國：如同我剛才說的都沒有事前預警的機制，都要去稽查之後看那些保單才能發覺，這都來不及了。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們再來……"],["劉委員建國：不是，我想是這樣，中央當然要把中央的相關制度訂好，地方政府在稽查的部分，如果經常有在做稽查，有看到這個保單，就不會現在才要去看保單，把它列為環境稽查重點，首都現在才在做這個事情，所以我才會講全部統統在做基本功，而且看保單還要派這麼多人力，其實連結到保險相關單位應該就可以勾稽出來，為什麼不去做？"],["薛部長瑞元：這其實很簡單，只要把這些應該要投保的店家列表，然後它的保單效期到什麼時候。"],["劉委員建國：對，包含登錄平臺、產品保險，其實都不需要到現場去稽查，勾稽還是在登錄的平臺上，我們就可以完全看出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：有這個資料庫的話，隨時都可以檢查，看看哪一個是否已經過期了。"],["劉委員建國：這個部分就請部長跟署長看這個事情應該怎麼去做一個處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：除此之外，地方政府有沒有掌握到相關業者的保險存續問題，剛剛也有委員特別提到百貨公司業者是不是也應該有監督責任，但是監督責任與實際上必須要去承載的法律責任，坦白講，我感覺如果沒有法律予以規範，其實那個落差也會滿大的，這是其一。其二，這次意外遠百是大房東，大時代廣場是二房東，臺北市政府現在是拿大房東的商業綜合責任險與二房東的公共意外責任險出來審視，到底能不能涵蓋到這次寶林茶室的食物中毒意外，最終還沒有出爐前，都還是有變數，到底能不能cover，但是我看記者會好像是朝這個方向，我覺得到時候會有不一樣的法律見解或處理。我要強調的是，這些百貨業者或美食街的承包商，對旗下餐廳到底應該有什麼樣的連帶責任，跟保險可以直接掛上去，這是不是我們要思考的問題嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：以保險的責任，如果在食安法，當然就是提供飲食服務的這個廠商要去投保，至於上層的這些提供場地或是提供櫃位，或是收取租金的這些廠商，跟它在責任上面要怎麼樣share，它的保險是否可以cover，老實說，這要好好去研究，我現在不敢講。"],["劉委員建國：你還不敢說就會很吃力，你知道嗎？因為部長有很多的專業背景，所以我要從法律的層次跟你討論，我是一個消費者，我到這家百貨公司用餐發生這種事情，這個業者沒有續保產品及意外責任險，然後它的大房東也沒有善盡監督之責，地方政府又沒有去勾稽它的保險到底有沒有續保，現在出事情了，到底誰要來負這個責任？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果從法律的觀點來看的話，這個場所的主人也就是提供空間的公司，是否對這個個別的廠商、這些飲食店有監督管理之責，如果有，這個受害者要求償的時候，其實這2個就可以連帶求償。"],["劉委員建國：OK。"],["薛部長瑞元：其中他們要怎麼cover，要怎麼互相責任分割，那是他們自己內部的事情，哪一個保險可以cover到，也是他們自己的個別保單要去處理的，所以對消費者來講，他只要確定這一點，就是場所的主人對於個別廠商有沒有監督管理之責。"],["劉委員建國：有沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這要看他們的合約。"],["劉委員建國：基本上，我想社會大眾應該是會認定有，因為我來這個百貨公司消費，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是看這間百貨公司的名字來的，但是也不能排除他是因為這間店很有名的，比方某家拉麵店，不是因為這間百貨公司，他是因為這個拉麵很有名，所以這很難說，回過頭來，法律關係還是要看他們之間的契約如何。"],["劉委員建國：但是我在這邊要具體要求部長和食藥署，中央主管機關對這件事情要儘快去做相關的調查和釐清，讓消費者可以得到一定程度的保障。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們跟消保處一起來處理。"],["劉委員建國：相關的預警機制是不是可以儘快建置，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：1個內可以吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：1個月，我們試試看，有可能。"],["劉委員建國：部長說有可能就是可能要了吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，一定會做，只是1個月內是不是能夠做出來。"],["劉委員建國：我就是要求1個月，請部長跟署長儘快。最後一件事情我要請教署長，有人叫我不要提出來，但是我還是覺得必須要講，去年3月22日食藥署有公布111年度十大違規食藥廣告，並累計開罰到將近200萬，今年已經4月1日了，什麼時候可以公布？"],["吳署長秀梅：報告委員，這個禮拜我們就會公布。"],["劉委員建國：而且臺北市衛生局在2月19日公布去年開罰的結果，所以你們什麼時候要公布？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們這個禮拜會公布。"],["劉委員建國：好，我就善意的提醒，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時54分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","請涂權吉委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.552218750000002,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.74971875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.36971875,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.47909375,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.79909375,"end":32.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.869718750000004,"end":44.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.88909375,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.12096875,"end":46.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.555343750000006,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.250343750000006,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.24659375,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.99971875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.06721875000001,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.21471875,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.84721875000001,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.82596875,"end":100.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.28096875,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.33971875,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.73596875000001,"end":116.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.32909375000001,"end"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對不對"},{"start":95.928,"end":116.518,"text":"那現在臺北市政府才要一一的針對這些沒有保險的店面開罰你敢不敢跟我說這很憤怒很離譜的啦不止這樣啦我想我們為什麼連這個一個基本的保險而且它有法律的規範第13條怎麼連一個預警機制都沒有這其一啦那其二"},{"start":117.418,"end":137.433,"text":"其實這一次的食物中毒事件之後我覺得臺北市政府衛生局的同仁大家也很辛苦了但是好像都要做基本功了你看他們去稽查上月29號浩浩噹噹跑去這個原百S3美食業做稽查27家業者中有3家發現這個衛生環境的缺失"},{"start":140.335,"end":163.153,"text":"這個是基礎的重點但也發現還有9家業者該去登錄非登不可沒有登錄所以他的提供體檢或進行這個進貨單的這類的行政的缺失是很明顯的那該去登錄非登不可沒有去登錄的有沒有委員實案法有委員第幾條要怎麼划"},{"start":166.648,"end":190.149,"text":"違反第8條、第2項的時候,要依48條去處罰。對,要處罰多少?最低多少?最高多少?也是3萬到300萬。也是3萬到300萬?對啊。但我沒有看到台北市政府要開罰。他有一個限期改善,前面有一個緩衝的處理。"},{"start":193.232,"end":215.736,"text":"3月30在臺北市在突起這個臺北市內的百貨美食街又稽查39家除了衛生環境缺失外又發現一家為投保這個產品責任險剛剛那個是27家就有三分之一就9家那3月30我不曉得他的稽查他39家又有一家發現為投保這個產品責任險請部長再看這張圖"},{"start":220.238,"end":245.893,"text":"37家的百貨公司及各大賣場的美食街他要一個月清查全部清查這個我們當然支持不過你看到稽查重點第一風險食材保存、溫度與環境第二產品責任保險視為有效第三設備環境清潔你第一點第二點到現場我覺得我覺得當然是必要但是產品責任保險要到現場去稽查"},{"start":251.077,"end":260.923,"text":"我剛才說了都沒有一個事情預警的機制,人家要去檢查料、化配、補端、藉口去發工,這都沒福氣啊嘛對不對?不是不是,我說我想是這樣齁"},{"start":265.746,"end":291.465,"text":"中央當然要有中央街中要去把相關的這個制度頂得好啦齁 台中幾乎在客家的部分 如果經常有在做稽查 要看到這個保單就不會現在才要去看保單嘛 把它列為這個環境稽查的重點我覺得這個首都勒 首都現在在做這個事情 所以我才會講說全部通通 通通在做基本功 而且看保單還要派這麼多人力"},{"start":292.942,"end":319.361,"text":"這其實連結到我們保險相關單位應該就可以勾結出來的為什麼不去做這其實很簡單只要把這些應該要投保的這些店家的列表然後他的保單效期到什麼時候對 所以我想說包含這個平台包含這個對 成品保險這個都不是這個其實都不需要到現場去勾去積查的嘛"},{"start":319.821,"end":320.682,"text":"那除了之外"},{"start":340.31,"end":362.181,"text":"我沒有去掌握到這相關的業者的保險存續問題那百貨公司剛剛也有人特別提到百貨公司的業者他們是不是也應該有監督的責任但是監督的責任跟法律上實際上他必須要去承載的這樣的一個法律責任就坦白講我感覺如果沒有法律規範其實那個落差也會蠻大是其一那其二"},{"start":366.463,"end":382.32,"text":"你看這次意外原本是大黃東嘛大時代廣場是二黃東台北市政府現在是拿大黃東的三頁綜合責任險與二黃東的公共意外責任險出來審視那到底能不能涵蓋到這次寶林茶室的食物中毒"},{"start":383.822,"end":402.577,"text":"在最終還沒有出獄前都還是有變數了但是我看他們的記者會好像覺得好像是朝那個方向但是我覺得這是有不一樣的到時候會有不一樣的一個法律上的見解或是怎麼樣的處理"},{"start":404.398,"end":428.284,"text":"所以我是要強調說這些百貨業者或是美食界的承包商對旗下的餐廳他到底應該有什麼樣的一個連帶的責任然後跟這個保險上可以直接掛上去這是不是我們也要思考的問題嗎這當然以保險的責任如果在食安法他當然就是這一個提供飲食服務的這個廠商要去投保"},{"start":429.384,"end":450.76,"text":"至於說他的上層的這一些提供場地或者是說提供歸位或者是收取租金的這一些廠商的話跟他在責任上面要怎麼樣去share有沒有他的保險是否可以cover這老實說這要好好去研究"},{"start":453.402,"end":457.344,"text":"我是一個消費者我是這家保護公司我到這家保護公司去用餐我發生這些事情那這個業者他沒有去續保他的這個產品及意外責任險然後他的黃東他的大黃東也沒有善盡監督之責"},{"start":481.897,"end":486.91,"text":"地方政府有沒有去攻擊他的保險啊到底有沒有續保現在出事情了到底怎樣的負責責任"},{"start":490.444,"end":514.031,"text":"如果從法律的觀點來看的話那就是說這個場所的主人也就提供這些空間的這個公司是否對這個個別的廠商這些飲食店有監督管理職責那如果有那這個受害者要去球場的時候即使都這兩個就可以連帶球場"},{"start":516.291,"end":542.05,"text":"內在他們要怎麼遮蓋、要怎麼保障責任分割,那是他們內在自己的事情。對一個有保險可以遮蓋,那也是他們自己個別保單要去處理的。所以對消費者來講,他只要確定這一點,就是說場所的這個主人對於個別廠商有沒有監督管理職責。有沒有嗎?部長?因為要看他們的合約。"},{"start":545.892,"end":561.777,"text":"基本上我相信消費大眾應該一定是有嘛因為我在這裡我的報告公司消費嘛對不對我是看這間報告公司的名來的嘛但是也不能排除說它是因為這間店很有名的比方說某家拉麵店"},{"start":563.317,"end":592.236,"text":"他不是因為這間百貨公司,他是因為這個拉麵很有名所以這很難說,回過頭來法律關係還是要看他們之間的契約如何但是我在這邊要去理要求部長跟食藥署可能站在中央主管機關對這件事情要儘快去做相關的調查跟釐清讓消費者可以得到一定程度的保障我們來跟消保處一起來處理好了"},{"start":592.836,"end":608.821,"text":"好然後相關的那些疫情機制可能是不是可以盡快來建制好不好一個月內可以吧一個月我們試試看啦有可能啦有可能啦我現在我想不叫有可能就是可能要了吧"},{"start":609.421,"end":629.458,"text":"對阿一定會做啦只是說一個月內是不是能夠做出來這個是要求我就是要求一個月啦好不好請部長跟署長就盡快啦齁最後一件事情我要請教請教署長啦齁這個有人叫我不要提出來但是我還是覺得必須要講去年3月22、12時有公布111年度的食道違規食藥廣告並累計開罰到了將近200萬對阿那今年已經失業以後了"},{"start":636.969,"end":650.528,"text":"報告委員這個禮拜我們就會公佈而且齁臺北市衛生局都在2月19號公佈他去年開伙的結果是所以我們什麼時候要公佈我們這個禮拜會公佈好是好我就善意的提醒了好不好謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}