{"error":false,"id":["150758"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150758,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150758","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T11:16:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T11:27:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c08140c33fe29a859f9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a62153524cdbbb34395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:16:37 - 11:27:54","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":511,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時16分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請立法院周秘書長、司法院黃副秘書長以及法務部陳次長。"],["主席：請秘書長、副秘書長，還有次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好，副秘書長好，次長好。"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：先請教秘書長，我們今天談國會改革，我的標題寫得很清楚，健全國會非擴權，我們是健全沒有擴權，要健全國會的調查權，你同意嗎？這不是擴權嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：是啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是我們是健全不是擴權，但可不可以濫權？可不可以濫權？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可以濫權。什麼情況會濫權？權責不符就容易濫權。好，再來，你認不認為國會權是監督行政權的，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們是監督官員嘛，是不是？但是行政官員是不是只有國會可以監督，監察院可不可以監督？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個都各有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你嘛，監察院可不可以監督官員？"],["周秘書長萬來：它是一個事後的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以監督官員是國會的天職，但不是只有國會可以監督，還包括監察權，也包括司法權，所以我們不能越權，你同不同意？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們也在報告裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有寫喔？對，很好。"],["周秘書長萬來：對這個部分有比較。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但我們是監督官員，請問國會是用來監督人民的嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為行使調查權的話，因為有聽證的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們是不是來監督人民的？國會是不是來監督人民的？"],["周秘書長萬來：國會不是監督人民的，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，很好，所以我們不能侵犯人權，你同意嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：基本人權我們當然要保護。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，不能侵犯。好，那我接下來問三位一個問題，權力分立跟權責分際，今天報紙的頭條有本院財政委員會召委要求保險局邀壽險公司老闆餐敘，而且還只限定藍白的委員可以參加，民進黨的不能來喔，請問一下副秘書長，你覺得這個有什麼爭議？副秘書長，你認為這有什麼爭議？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然我看媒體上面是寫說權限，那當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是什麼爭議？爭議在哪裡？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那到底適合不適合……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為適不適合？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們站在司法行政的角度，可能就這問題，我個人覺得不適合表達意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我再問次長，你認為如果說有人是球員，有人是裁判，假設金管會是裁判，他負責監督壽險業者，壽險業者是球員，是不是這樣？"],["陳次長明堂：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那球員可不可以兼裁判？"],["陳次長明堂：不宜。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不宜嘛，好。那假設某個大腕邀請了裁判、邀請了球員一起私下聚餐，你覺得看在球迷眼中，他們要幹什麼事情？"],["陳次長明堂：基本上是這樣，應該在整個行政或是包括……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你我剛才假設的狀況，如果有個大腕，他邀了球員跟裁判私下聚餐，討論明天的事情，你覺得看在球迷的眼中，他們在幹嘛？"],["陳次長明堂：這中間是不是有作弊或什麼樣的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，會不會要簽賭，是不是這樣子？"],["陳次長明堂：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們看看這一位委員，我過去也在財政委員會當過召委，我也當過教育委員會的召委，如果不是財政委員會，我當教育委員會的召委，有時候我會請教育委員會管的部會主管跟委員們聯絡感情，可不可以？你認為可不可以？"],["陳次長明堂：一般性的可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這位委員在去年選舉前，他辦了一個公聽會關心CFC，然後他請了官員來、請了業者來，底下還附上他個人的政治獻金專戶，你覺得他在暗示什麼？"],["陳次長明堂：這個會有各種不同的看法，對啦！沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們開公聽會需要附一個政治獻金專戶嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：這個應該在國會來講，我也不好批評，但是國會要自律。"],["鍾委員佳濱：自律，很好，你的分際也只能講到這裡。一個立委在院外，既有的職權都可以搞到這個程度了，你覺得社會放心給他調查權嗎？我們看下一頁，請問司法院副秘書長，法官可以私下約被告吃飯嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：就法官的部分，當然是不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問次長，檢察官可以私下約當事人吃飯嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：不可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。請問秘書長，金管會為了維持金融秩序的穩定，監督金管會的人就叫立法委員，他要求金管會邀請壽險業者，有沒有濫權的問題？"],["周秘書長萬來：這要看他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼狀況，我就問你，請吃飯可不可以？有沒有瓜田李下之嫌？"],["周秘書長萬來：這位委員的情況我不太瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不太清楚？你再私下問委員。","請看下一頁，但是我們社會在擔心什麼？如果國會的聽證權能夠傳喚民間企業，他就有可能私設刑堂，立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎？請問秘書長，可不可以？現行法可不可以？我問你，秘書長，立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：現在現行法是沒有這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是國民黨楊瓊瓔版本第七十五條之二，傅總召的版本，姑且稱之為國民黨黨團版本，第四十八條第二項還加上刑法第一百四十一條之一，民眾如果不接受立法院的傳喚，他會吃上刑責，你有沒有看到這一條，有沒有？有嘛，條文有寫嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：條文裡面有這樣規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：縱使如此，我們看到民眾黨的版本，民眾黨把調查對象擴及到不只是行政機關或官員，擴及到一般人民，如果一般人民拒絕，還可以罰鍰。民進黨過去不是沒有這樣的思考，過去的版本，我們也曾經將調查的對象、課責的範圍擴及到非行政機關以外，但是由於涉及到行政，涉及到罰鍰，我們的版本有罰鍰，有對機關課以罰鍰的義務，但是我們的版本從來沒有要求把人民叫來，不聽就要罰款，甚至像傅委員傅總召的版本一樣要送刑法，有沒有？國民黨黨團版本有沒有要送刑法？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這是委員自己的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：將民眾入罪啊！","我們看下一頁，如果立法委員對企業不滿，我開個公聽會，並附了我的政治獻金專戶帳號，你都沒有表示，我開公聽會傳喚企業來，可不可以公然在國會私設刑堂，用刑法入罪辦企業、辦人民，可不可以？你同意嗎？你接受嗎？這就是我們版本的最大差別！民進黨不是不想健全國會調查權，我們也放進了要求行政機關必須有出列席的義務，有提供文件調閱的義務，我們也加上了罰鍰，但是我們不會把人民當作我們調查的主體。","相較於擴權，社會更擔心的是立法委員濫權，立法院調查權有限制，要維持權力分立的原則，與憲法職權有關聯的可以，但是我們不能去侵犯其他憲政機關、最高機關憲法保障的職權，也不能影響政府運作的行政特權，立委可以濫用調查權來滿足個人利益嗎？請問次長，你覺得可以接受嗎？"],["陳次長明堂：應該不會，不應該這樣做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，應該不會，你說得很好，應該不會。但如果有委員會呢？今天我們看到國民黨的委員、國防委員會的召委，案件還在調查中，他在3月21日以召委身分，安排召開國安局機密會議，請問立委召開機密會議的目的幹嘛？目前因為調閱而取得的秘密，有沒有保密的義務？副秘書長，如果國會因調查而取得的秘密，你認為有沒有保密的義務？有沒有？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：看到相關的這些草案裡面，是有這個保密的義務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要有保密的義務，這也是民進黨的版本，要求國會要健全，要健全調查權，你要權責相符啊！你要負有保密的義務，你可不可以拿到機密資料之後馬上洩密？副秘書長，可不可以？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這些如果涉及到國家安全，或者是其他人的權益的話，當然要做權衡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：周秘書長，您宣稱是我們韓院長特別把你重出江湖請來的，過去我在國民大會的時候，我們有一個吳萬得議事組主任，那時候您好像是比他高一屆還是低一屆，您是周萬來，議事的權威專家，兩邊都萬來萬去啊！一個萬得，一個萬來，我們都佩服你對議事的了解。但是你看一看目前這些版本，我個人認為有兩道紅線，各黨團要提版本，可以健全國會的調查權，但是這兩條紅線不能踩，第一，不得假借調查之名行洩密之實，你同不同意未來我們職權行使法的規範，可以調查，但要對洩密課以刑責？你同不同意？"],["周秘書長萬來：當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，很好。那立法委員可不可以假借聽證之名行恐嚇之實？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這一個調查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以把人民叫來，你不來我就罰款，說你虛偽不實，我把你送法辦？可以嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個第585號解釋，對於人民，一定是跟調查事項有相關的人民。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第585號有說，立法院行使職權為了調查所需，可以請人民來表示意見嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為調查……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第585號有說可以把人民送去刑法、送去法院嗎？司法院副秘書長，有沒有？就你的了解，第585號可以這樣做嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：第585號是在調查的時候可以詢問，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他可以詢問嘛！他要釐清，立法院行使調查權的時候，不會去侵犯司法院的司法審判……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那一部分，第585號是沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也不會侵犯監察院對官員事後的調查，是不是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：第585號文字上面是這樣，但是真正的意旨，可能我們司法行政……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，你不是大法官，哪天你是大法官我們再來請教你。","秘書長，我們在這裡講得很清楚，請我們各黨團，國會要健全，但不是擴權，更不能濫權；我們國會要監督官員，不能越權，更不能侵犯人民的權利！謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請傅委員崐萁發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","劉建國"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員楊瓊\n瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院\n職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四\n條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條\n之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案、(七)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五\n條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中\n華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案；\n三、審查(一)委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 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副秘書長好 次長好先請教秘書長我們今天談國會改革我的標題寫得很清楚建權國會非擴權我們是建權沒有擴權要建權國會的調查權你同意嗎這不是擴權嗎對 但是我們建權我們不是擴權但可不可以濫權可不可以濫權"},{"start":62.722,"end":70.408,"text":"國會權是監督行政權的對不對?好那我們是監督官員嘛是不是?但是官員行政官員是不是只有國會可以監督?監察院可不可以監督?我是問你嘛監察院可不可以監督官員?"},{"start":90.464,"end":100.508,"text":"對,所以監督官員是國會的天職,但不是只有國會可以監督,包括監察權,包括司法權,所以我們不能越權,你同不同意?但是我們是監督官員,請問國會是用來監督人民的嗎?"},{"start":113.607,"end":118.949,"text":"國外不是監督人民所以我們不能侵犯人權你同意嗎對不能侵犯好那我接下來問三位一個問題來權力分立跟權責分際今天報紙的頭條有本院"},{"start":138.026,"end":166.684,"text":"財政委員昭偉要求保險局邀受險公司老闆參敘啊而且還指限定市南板的委員可以參加喔欸民進黨的不能來喔請問一下副秘書長你覺得這個什麼爭議副秘書長你認為這什麼爭議那個當然我看媒體上面是寫說權限啦那當然是什麼爭議爭議在哪裡那到底適合不適合你認為適不適合可能將來我也我們在司法行政可能就這問題"},{"start":167.963,"end":196.224,"text":"我再問你來市長你認為如果說我們說有人是球員有人是裁判假設金管會是裁判他來監督受險業者受險業者球員是不是這樣那球員可不可以兼裁判不宜嘛好那假設很多人某個大碗邀請了裁判邀請了球員一起私下聚餐你覺得看在球迷眼中他們要幹什麼事情"},{"start":197.452,"end":224.09,"text":"基本上這樣啦應該在整個行政或是包括我是問你我的狀況啊如果有個大碗他邀了球員邀了裁判私下聚餐討論明天的事情你覺得看在球迷的眼中他們在幹嘛中間是不是有作弊或什麼會不會要遷土啊是不是這樣子所以我們看看啊這一位委員啊我過去也在財政委員會我也當過召委我也當過教育委員會的召委"},{"start":225.017,"end":249.449,"text":"如果不是財政委會教育委員會會請教育委員會管的這些部會主管跟委員們聯絡感情可不可以你認為可不可以可以那這位委員他在去年選舉前他辦個公聽會關心CFC然後呢他請了官員來請了業者來底下還附上他個人的政治先進專務你覺得他在暗示什麼"},{"start":252.831,"end":277.757,"text":"我們開公聽會需要附一個政治先進專務嗎?這個應該在國會來講齁,我也不好批評,但是國會要有自律也行。自律,很好。你奉獻講到這。一個立委在院外既有的職權都可以搞到這個程度了,你覺得社會放心給他調查權嗎?我們看下一頁。請問司法院副廳,副秘書長。法官可以私下約被告吃飯嗎?"},{"start":278.786,"end":295.429,"text":"那就法官的部分當然是不行請問次長檢察官可以私下約當事人吃飯嗎?不可以好請問秘書長金管會為了維持金融秩序的穩定監督金管會的人就叫立法委員可以要求金管會邀請授權業者有沒有濫權的問題?這要看呢什麼狀況我就問你啊請吃飯可不可以啊有沒有掛天理下次錢?"},{"start":308.61,"end":328.617,"text":"你不太清楚你在私下問委員但是我們下一頁我們社會在擔心什麼如果國會的聽證權能夠傳喚民間企業他就有可能私設刑堂啊立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎請問秘書長可不可以現行法可不可以現行法可不可以我問你秘書長啊立法院可以將民眾移送法辦嗎"},{"start":337.882,"end":362.828,"text":"但是國民黨楊瓊瓔版本75條之二副總召的版本乎且針對國民黨黨團版本48條第二項還加上刑法第141條之一民眾如果不接受立法院的傳犯他會吃上刑責你有沒有看到有沒有看到這一條有沒有有嗎條文有寫嗎縱使如此我們看到民眾黨的"},{"start":364.195,"end":373.472,"text":"民眾黨呢他把他的調查的對象擴及到不只是行政機關或官員擴及到一般人民如果一般人民拒絕還可以罰還"},{"start":375.27,"end":404.671,"text":"民進黨不是過去沒有這樣的思考。過去的版本我們也曾經將調查的對象、苛責的範圍擴及到非行政機關以外。但是由於涉及到行政、涉及到划環,我們的版本有罰環,有對機關刻意划環的義務。但是我們的版本從來沒有要求把人民叫來不聽、叫罰款,甚至像復原的版本一樣、附送的版本一樣要送刑法,有沒有?"},{"start":406.275,"end":430.152,"text":"國民黨黨團們有沒有有沒有要送刑法將民眾入罪啊我們看下一頁如果立法委員對企業不滿我開個公聽會我附了我的政治獻金專號你都沒有表示我開公聽會傳案企業來可不可以在公然的國會施設刑堂用刑法入罪辦企業辦人民可不可以你同意嗎你接受嗎"},{"start":436.935,"end":455.968,"text":"這就是我們版本最大的差別民進黨不是不想健全國會調查權我們也放盡了要求必須行政機關有出列席的義務有提供文件調閱的義務我們也加上了罰款但是我們不會把人民當作我們調查的主體下一頁"},{"start":457.639,"end":481.605,"text":"比較擴權社會擔心的是立法院濫權。立法院調查權有限制要維持權力分立的原則。我們跟憲法職權有關的觀點可以。但是我們不能去侵犯其他憲政機關、最高機關、憲法保障的職權。也不能影響政府運作的行政特權。立委可以濫用調查權滿足個人利益嗎?請問次長你覺得可以接受嗎?"},{"start":483.05,"end":512.254,"text":"應該不會應該不會你說的很好應該不會下一頁但是五人一會了呢今天我們看到國民黨的委員國防委員會的召委案件還在調查中他在3月20日以召委身份安排召開國安局機密會議請問立委召開機密會議的目的幹嘛來我告訴你目前因為調閱而取得的秘密有沒有保密的義務傅平書長你認為如果國會因調查而取得的秘密有沒有保密的義務有沒有"},{"start":513.814,"end":538.914,"text":"看到相關的這些草案裡面是有這個要有保密的義務這也是民進黨的版本要求國會要健全你要健全你的調查權你要全責相輔啊你要負有保密的義務你可不可以拿到機密資料之後馬上洩密副秘書長可不可以可不可以這些如果涉及到一些國家安全或者是其他的人的權益的話當然這個要做權衡啦副秘書長周秘書長"},{"start":541.38,"end":568.955,"text":"您宣稱是我們韓院長特別把你重出江湖請來的過去我在國民大會的時候我們有一個吳萬德議事組主任您那時候您是比他好像高一屆還是第一屆您是周萬來議事的權威專家兩邊都萬來萬去啊一個萬德一個萬來我們都佩服你對議事的了解但是你看一看目前這些版本我個人認為有兩道紅線"},{"start":570.336,"end":588.96,"text":"各黨團要提版本可以健全國會的調查權但是這兩條紅線不能踩第一不得假借調查之名行洩密之時你同不同意未來我們職權行使法的規範可以調查但要對洩密刻以刑責你同不同意當然很好那立法委員可不可以假借聽證之名行恐惡之時"},{"start":598.763,"end":605.926,"text":"五八五有說可以立法院行使職權為了調查所需可以請人民來怎樣表示意見嘛五八五有說可以把人民送去刑法嗎送去法院嗎"},{"start":631.04,"end":644.35,"text":"五八五號可以這樣做嗎?五八五號是在調查的時候可以詢問他可以詢問嘛他要釐清立法院行使調查權的時候不會去侵犯司法院的司法"},{"start":644.991,"end":660.299,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":660.796,"end":674.95,"text":"我們在這裡講很清楚請我們各黨團國會要健全但不是擴全更不能濫權我們國會要監督官員不能越權更不能侵犯人民的權利謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}