{"error":false,"id":["150785"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150785,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150785","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[19,23],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T12:12:11+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T12:18:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c052824f1ed51b38080ac6c5f5acaf79d9f8ba9b0039caa7a6504e1f211f94f9a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"12:12:11 - 12:18:53","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、交通兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「環島高速鐵路建設特別條例草案」案。(詢答及處理)）","gazette":{"lineno":680,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（12時12分）謝謝主席，請龔主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["李委員昆澤：還有請交通部胡湘麟次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：李委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：國會議員對於地方重大的交通建設之爭取是天經地義的事情，我們對於各地交通能夠順暢地發展也是樂見其成。當然在爭取相關的交通建設或推動相關的法令，對於權力分立的憲政的基本原則，我想每個委員應該都清楚。第二，對於相關爭取的程序，不但要有嚴謹的可行性評估，還要經過環境影響評估、環差的評估，更重要還要財務相關的評估，那在爭取相關的建設，我對於這次環島高鐵的條例，對於國發會的角色大挪移，我實在嚇了一跳，過去在爭取相關的建設要經過可行性評估，通過之後送到交通部去做審議，交通部審議通過再送到國發會，它是一個審議的機關，不是嗎？龔主委說明一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["李委員昆澤：那你們現在變成主管機關啦？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以我們還是認為說循……"],["李委員昆澤：天公生跑去迎媽祖，你們角色變化實在很快。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以我們還是覺得，因為我們的專長在過去的經驗上，重大建設都是一個審議跟協調的過程。"],["李委員昆澤：你們變成交通建設的主管機關，這個在相關的政治制度方面真的讓我們衝擊非常地大。另外在第五條說在十年內從計畫到施工要完成，是不是說明一下？相關的草案。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，目前的草案是這樣子。"],["李委員昆澤：好，胡湘麟次長，我們兩個都在交通很久了，臺鐵的臺北鐵路地下化，1983年施工到2011年才初步完工。從臺北車站專案、松山專案，然後萬板專案，萬華到板橋，最後是南港專案，也經歷了將近30年才完成。高雄的鐵路地下化才15公里，臺北的鐵路地下化23公里左右。高雄的鐵路地下化，也是從高雄計畫、左營計畫還有鳳山計畫，也是從2000年開始動工，到2018年才第一階段完成，整個鐵路地下化完成、新的火車站完成，也要到2025年，將近25年。現在政府真的是要變得非常厲害，先不管憲政原則，現在評估的程序整個都不用了嗎？都不用嚴謹地去針對當地的生態、當地的發展，有造成什麼衝擊去評估，要怎麼去規劃財務，都不用了嗎？臺北鐵路地下化做了將近30年、高雄的鐵路地下化也要做到25年，環島高鐵你10年內要完成？這個違反我的常識。另外，國道七號就好了，國道七號的環境影響評估做了十幾年，各位，我們都要很嚴謹來面對這些相關的議題，請胡次長說明一下。"],["胡次長湘麟：是，在過去所有的交通建設，不論鐵路公路大概都會經過可行性研究。"],["李委員昆澤：對，先不管憲政的權力分立原則，也不去考慮相關的主管機關應該是誰，也不去管相關的可行性評估、環境影響評估、環差評估還有財務評估，先都不要去討論，10年內環島高鐵可以完成到花東嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：我認為10年之內這個估算是比較樂觀，而且可能跟我們實際上作業是會有差距。"],["李委員昆澤：我們都希望環島高鐵能夠順利地完成，當然對於鐵路的規劃，在過去的觀念長途就是高鐵，中途、中長程就是臺鐵，那短程都會區就是捷運跟輕軌相關的軌道系統來完成建立。那現在我們面臨一個問題，就是應該如何讓社會大眾清楚應該有的程序是怎樣，還有會經歷的困難是什麼、施工的過程是什麼。我們一起來向社會展現我們支持花東，也支持相關的交通建設，但是我們會面臨的問題是什麼、經歷的過程是什麼。龔主委現在是國發會主委又要兼任交通部長，真的是恭喜你啊，很不簡單喔。你又可以審議又可以變成主管機關。國發會對於過去建立的相關審議過程，是要可行性評估，然後交通部審議過再送國發會，現在都不用交通部了，直接跳過去你們自己審議就好了，這樣符合行政程序嗎？符合嚴謹的評估程序嗎？最後時間，來簡單說明一下。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，因為部會的分工本來就有一個原則，主管機關當然是希望把這個完成。因為它是主管機關嘛，所以規劃等等要經過第二個單位來做審議，用外部來檢視。檢視我們會提供意見來協處，希望這個案子可以順利地往前走，所以各有分工。"],["李委員昆澤：好，請大家都要嚴肅地思考，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，接下來請游顥委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-19,23-1","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","傅崐萁","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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高雄的鐵路地下化,"},{"start":162.475,"end":185.592,"text":"才15公里,臺北的鐵路地下化23公里左右,高雄的鐵路地下化也是從高雄計畫、左營計畫、還有鳳山計畫,它也是從2000年開始動工,到2018年才第一階段完成,整個鐵路地下化完成,新的火車站完成,也要到2025年,也要將近25年,我們現在政府真的是要變得非常厲害,"},{"start":193.439,"end":193.459,"text":"委員長"},{"start":216.052,"end":238.058,"text":"台鐵、台北鐵路地下化做了將近30年高雄的鐵路地下化也要做到25年環島高鐵你10年內要完成這個都違反我的常識另外國道7號就好了國道7號的環境影響評估做了10幾年"},{"start":241.087,"end":243.91,"text":"各位 我們都很嚴謹來面對相關的這些議題來請胡次長說明一下"},{"start":249.833,"end":272.854,"text":"是,在我們所有過去的交通建設,不論鐵路、公路,大概都會經過可行性研究。對,我們先不管憲政的權力分立為原則,我們也不去考慮相關的這些主管機關應該是誰,我們也不要去管相關的這些可行性評估、環境影響評估、環差評估還有財務評估,先都不要去討論10年內可以完成環島高鐵到花東嗎?"},{"start":274.909,"end":278.55,"text":"我們都希望環島的高鐵能夠順利的完成當然我們對於鐵路的規劃在過去的觀念就是長途就是高鐵中長程就是台鐵"},{"start":298.835,"end":323.607,"text":"那短程都會區就是捷運還有輕軌相關的這些軌道系統能夠來完成的這樣的一個建立那現在我們面臨的這樣的一個問題就是說我們如何讓社會大眾清楚說這個應該有的程序是要怎樣還有我們會經歷的這樣的一個困難是什麼施工的過程是什麼"},{"start":324.807,"end":349.174,"text":"我們一起來向社會展現說我們支持花東我們也支持相關的交通建設但是我們會面臨的問題是什麼?我們經歷的過程是什麼?廣州委員現在國安會主委又要兼任交通部長真的是恭喜你啊很不簡單喔你又可以審議又可以變成主管機關"},{"start":352.337,"end":369.102,"text":"國安委對於相關的審議過程,那過去我們建立的你要可行性評估,然後交通部審議過再送國安委現在都不用交通部啦,就直接跳過去了,你們就自己審議就好啦這樣符合行政程序嗎?符合嚴謹的評估程序嗎?來簡單說明一下,最後時間"},{"start":370.922,"end":398.761,"text":"是 所以我們還說因為部會的分工本來他就有一個原則主管機關他是當然他是希望把這個完成但是他在因為他是主管機關嘛所以他他的規劃或等等要經過第2個單位來做審議用外部來檢視他那這個檢視我們會提供意見來協處那希望這個案子可以順利的往前走所以各有分工請大家都要嚴肅的思考 謝謝"},{"start":400.353,"end":400.374,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}