{"error":false,"id":["150788"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150788,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150788","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T12:04:41+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T12:15:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c046e3fd9024942fec25a2f6254cf3c732f8ba9b0039caa7a6eb30719eee88c9bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:04:41 - 12:15:02","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1111,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時4分）好，謝謝主席。主席。我請一下薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：假如各位署長或組長覺得應該幫部長回復，可以自行上來。","部長，我們剛剛探討電價，我其實是覺得蘇清泉委員剛剛講的部分區域醫院電價漲了以後，經營確實會有一些困難，對於這一點，部裡面可能要想辦法，看怎麼讓各醫療層級的醫院都可以很平順地運作。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們有向行政院提出說醫界有這樣的訴求，當然最後還是要行政院依照相關的規定來做。"],["楊委員曜：剛剛講的是區域醫院，那地區醫院現在有沒有結論？像澎湖這一種，兩家那麼慘澹經營。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前都還沒定案。"],["楊委員曜：都還沒定案？對於經營上比較困難的醫院，電費調整確實是一個很大的問題，請部長盡力溝通。","部長，我們今天還是要講寶林茶室的問題，寶林茶室中毒案已經造成兩人死亡及多名重症患者，他們都有檢出罕見的米酵菌酸，何美鄉老師也講過，國際間像印尼、非洲、中國大概都有發生過類似的案件。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，曾經有。"],["楊委員曜：臺灣有很多食品的原料都是進口，所以米酵菌酸應該是透過食物鏈進來臺灣，到上個月29日記者會當天，粿條、香蘭葉、在來米粉都沒有驗出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：殘留的都沒有驗出來。"],["楊委員曜：對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：那有沒有可能是在添加物？比如說醬汁。"],["薛部長瑞元：有在使用的這一些添加物我們也都驗了，也是沒有驗出來。"],["楊委員曜：也都驗了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：那接下來怎麼處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為現在剩餘的這些，不管是食材或是添加物都驗了，沒有發現米酵菌酸，但是事實上病人身上又有發現，所以應該還是在這些人去食用的那一批，那一批裡面一定有米酵菌酸，這個應該是跑不掉，問題只是在是怎麼樣產生出來的，因為在我們扣案下來的這些都沒有驗出來，所以可能是都已經被吃完了，如果沒有吃完的，大概也都丟棄了。"],["楊委員曜：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以現在的調查就是在於說，這一些怎麼會跑出來，到底是在處理過程或者是保存的過程有機會產生米酵菌酸，這是我們現在調查的一個重點。"],["楊委員曜：就是說傷害的結果是有的嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：那所有可能的證據，現在都找不到了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是說推論的比較確定的是，第一個，大概就是米酵菌酸引起的，因為這一些病人都有驗出來，這些嚴重的和死亡的病人都有驗出來，所以這個是比較可以稍微確定的。","第二個就是說，這些病人的共通點就是都有吃粿條，這個也是比較確定的，至於剛剛講的香蘭葉，不是每一個人都有食用，其他食材也不是每一個人都有食用，比較共通的就是粿條，所以目前大概是focus在這部分，也就是說，到底那一批粿條從19日到24日中間，保存跟烹飪的過程當中有沒有造成什麼樣的機會讓米酵菌酸產生出來，這大概是現在的調查重點。"],["楊委員曜：也就是說，我們很難在這個事件裡面找到答案了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，事後要去找這一個的話，不容易。"],["楊委員曜：這個當然有它的困難點，因為幾乎沒有證物保存嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["楊委員曜：好，假如是這樣子的話，那衛福部要如何做？這件事對於社會的衝擊還滿大的，米類的食物或澱粉類的相關食品到底要怎麼保存？因為沒有辦法從外觀和氣味來分辨米酵菌酸，我們怎麼讓一般民眾知道到底要如何防範？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個大概是這樣子，一般性的預防措施還是需要，有關米類、粿、粉等食物的一般保存要怎麼樣做，對於這部分我們會把指引定出來。"],["楊委員曜：把它做出來，然後加強宣導。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是要給民眾參考的，讓他們清楚。但是針對於這一次引發中毒的粿、粉，到底在操作的過程當中有沒有什麼可疑的情形才會導致米酵菌酸的產生，這個部分的指引是要給餐飲業的，這個目前還沒有辦法確定，所以還是要等進一步的調查，再去猜測最可能的原因是在哪裡，然後才能形諸文字給這些餐飲業去瞭解。"],["楊委員曜：有關寶林茶室這個案子，我自己在想要再去做很多證明，因為我們用因果關係去推論是推不出來的，可是又比較沒有辦法有科學上的東西……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，沒有辦法直接去證明，可能會是這樣子。"],["楊委員曜：對，那就變成這個案子很難做一個清楚的釐清，也因為這樣子，所以我剛才才會跟部長建議趕快把一般性的指引做出來，告訴民眾怎麼樣才比較不會再發生事故，做出指引然後趕快向國人做個宣導；業者應該要強化的就強化、應該要稽查的就稽查。"],["薛部長瑞元：業者的部分當然是比較困難一點，因為現在真正的原因還不知道，但是假設說真正的原因到後來也沒有一個結論的話，那就變成說在業者處理的過程當中必須注意哪一些，範圍就會比較廣泛一點，業者受到的拘束就會比較多，他們在處理食材和發揮創意上可能就會受到一些限制，這也沒有辦法，如果最後出來的結果並沒有辦法確定到底是哪一個步驟、哪一個流程出問題的話，最後大概就會變成這個樣子。"],["楊委員曜：好，我最後要跟部長建議一下，日本小林製藥的紅麴相關產品出問題，雖然我們沒有直接向該公司購入紅麴，可是有一些藥品的原料是從那邊來的，所以要怎麼儘速地清查、回收？還有，假如有必要的話，怎麼協助消費者向日本廠商求償？假如有產生一些消費糾紛，可能部裡也必須要提供協助。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，我們一定會協助，不過因為到目前為止還不知道到底裡面是什麼樣的東西，所以那個因果關係的判斷就會相當的困難。"],["楊委員曜：對，好。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊曜委員的質詢。","接下來我們請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":300,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-10","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","劉建國","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","盧縣一","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","楊曜","羅智強","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","李坤城","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘","陳瑩","李彥秀","王鴻薇","徐富癸","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":203,"meetingDate":["2024-04-01"],"gazette_id":"1132301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、環境部、行政院食品安全辦公室、行政院消費者保護會、臺灣菸酒股份有\n限公司就「蘇丹紅、小林製藥紅麴原料以及寶林茶室食物中毒案等重大食安事件之檢討與策進作\n為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.886593750000001,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.89034375,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.25284375,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.67034375,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.813468750000002,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.15909375,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.93096875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.250343750000003,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.249718750000003,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.009093750000005,"end":65.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.06284375,"end":69.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.79221875,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.69034375000001,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.12909375000001,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.85159375,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.65284375,"end":106.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.13659375,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.99221875,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.27471875,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.11784375,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.51409375,"end":122.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.40846875000001,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.15346875,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.04221875000002,"end":144.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAK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謝謝主席 主席我請一下薛部長好 請薛部長由署長、署長、各位署長、副署長或組長覺得應該幫部長回覆的就可以自行上來"},{"start":27.312,"end":31.855,"text":"部長,我們剛剛探討電價齁,那我其實是覺得蘇清泉委員剛剛講的部分的區域醫院的電價漲了以後,確實對於他們的經營會有一些困難齁。"},{"start":47.906,"end":72.423,"text":"這個部裡面可能要想辦法看怎麼讓各醫療層級的醫院都可以很平順的運作我們有向行政院提出說醫界有這樣的訴求當然最後還是要行政院依照相關的規定來做剛剛講的是區域醫院嘛那地區醫院現在有沒有結論"},{"start":73.755,"end":78.379,"text":"目前都還沒定案就是對於經營上比較困難的醫院電費的調整確實是一個很大的問題請部長盡力的溝通部長我們今天還是要"},{"start":97.711,"end":115.475,"text":"要來講寶林茶室的問題就是說寶林茶室的中毒案大概已經造成兩個國人的死亡然後多名重症患者大概都有檢出來罕見的"},{"start":119.178,"end":145.492,"text":"米肖峻酸像何美鄉老師他大概有講過國際間像印尼、非洲、中國大概都有發生過相類似的台灣因為有很多食品的原料都是進口所以在這個"},{"start":148.905,"end":173.927,"text":"在米酵菌酸的應該是透過食物鏈進來台灣目前是這樣子目前是我們大概在到29號我們的記者會果條香蘭葉、在來米粉大概都沒有驗出來"},{"start":176.39,"end":190.023,"text":"殘留的都沒有驗出來有沒有可能是在添加物例如說降脂他有在使用的這一些添加物我們的也都驗了也是沒有驗出來那接下來怎麼處理"},{"start":198.137,"end":222.328,"text":"因為現在剩餘的這些不管是食材或人家物都驗了沒有發現當然事實上病人身上又有發現所以應該還是在那一批這些人去食用的時候那一批裡面一定是有這個免消菌酸這個應該是跑不掉"},{"start":223.268,"end":250.155,"text":"只是說它怎麼樣產生出來的因為在我們扣案下來的這些都沒有驗出來所以可能有的都已經被吃完都被吃完了如果沒有吃完了大概也都丟棄了那所以現在的調查就是在於說那這一些怎麼會跑出來到底是在處理過程或者是保存的過程"},{"start":251.115,"end":269.626,"text":"有讓他有機會會有這個米酵菌酸的產生這是我們現在在調查的一個點就是說傷害的結果是有了嘛那原因的所有的可能證據現在我們都找不到了"},{"start":270.477,"end":293.426,"text":"對,就是說可以推論的、比較確定的一個東西是第一個,大概就是米酵菌酸引起的,因為這一些病人都有驗出來這些嚴重的死亡的病人都有驗出來,所以這個是比較可以稍微確定的那第二個就是說,這些病人共通的點就是都有吃過"},{"start":296.326,"end":313.95,"text":"這也是比較確定的至於剛剛講的香蘭葉不是每一個都有用那其他的也不是每一個人都有用比較共通的就是果條所以大概目前是focus在這樣子就是說到底那一批果條就19號到24號中間這一些果條它的"},{"start":321.209,"end":323.85,"text":"也就是說我們很難在這個事件裡面找到答案了"},{"start":341.637,"end":351.068,"text":"對事後事後要去找這一個的話這個當然當然當然有他的困困難點因為因為他他哎幾乎沒有證物保存嗎對哦"},{"start":353.958,"end":373.599,"text":"那假如這個是這樣子的話那我們衛福部這邊如何的讓因為這個對於社會的衝擊還蠻大的就是說在米類的食物或澱粉類的相關食品到底要怎麼"},{"start":374.74,"end":402.032,"text":"因為他大概沒有辦法從外觀和氣味來分別我們怎麼讓一般的民眾知道說到底要怎麼防範這個大概是這樣子一般性的這些預防措施的話還是需要就是說本來我們這一類的食物像是米類或是果粉"},{"start":403.252,"end":424.768,"text":"或等等這些食物的話在一般的保存要怎麼樣保存這個我們會把這個指引做出來這是要給民眾參考的讓他們清楚但是針對所謂的這一次的發生的這個果粉"},{"start":425.869,"end":439.445,"text":"到底在操作的過程當中有沒有什麼可疑的問題產生的情形產生才會導致米酵菌酸的產生這個是要給餐飲業的"},{"start":440.706,"end":463.458,"text":"這個要怎樣?給餐飲業的指引這個目前還沒有辦法確定所以還是要等到進一步的調查然後再去猜測說最可能的原因是在哪裡然後再才能夠把它行出文字然後給這些餐飲業去調查就是說寶林茶室這個案子因為我"},{"start":465.279,"end":484.014,"text":"我自己在想啦齁就是因為要再去做很多證明就是說我們用推論的因果關係是推得出來可是他比較沒有辦法有科學上的東西對沒有辦法直接去證明可能會是這個意思對那就變成"},{"start":485.015,"end":510.589,"text":"就變成這個案子很難做一個很清楚的釐清也因為這樣子所以我剛才才會跟部長建議說趕快把一般性的指引怎樣才比較不會再發生事故做出指引然後趕快向國人做個宣導跟業者應該要強化的就強化應該要稽查的就稽查"},{"start":511.95,"end":528.215,"text":"業者的部分當然是比較困難一點因為現在真正的原因還不知道但是假設說這個真正的原因到後來也沒有一個結論的話那就是變成說在業者處理的過程當中的話必須要注意哪一些就會變成會比較廣泛一點"},{"start":529.995,"end":553.95,"text":"那當然業者的話會變成說受到的拘束就會比較多那對於他們在處理這一個食材然後他們的創意的發揮可能就會受到一些限制那這沒有辦法如果說最後出來的結果並沒有辦法去說確定到底是哪一個步驟哪一個流程是出問題的話那最後大概就會變成這個樣子"},{"start":555.831,"end":577.883,"text":"好我最後跟部長因為食品的關係部長建議一下就是日本小林製藥的紅麴相關產品其實雖然我們沒有直接有紅麴的購入可是有一些藥品的材料是原料是從那邊來的所以"},{"start":582.105,"end":605.011,"text":"要怎麼儘速的清查、回收,還有假如有必要的話怎麼協助消費者,像日本,因為他是日本的廠商嘛,這可能,假如有啦,有產生一些消費糾紛,可能我們部體這邊也必須要提供書。"},{"start":606.647,"end":617.131,"text":"當然啦,我們一定會做協助,不過這個因為到目前為止還不知道到底它裡面是什麼樣東西所以那個因果關係的判斷就會相當困難好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}