{"error":false,"id":["150805"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150805,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150805","日期":"2024-04-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-01T12:21:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-01T12:35:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01d093d00f1a07c08c6176a6b13e640c9e1c65aef640d3e3f8ba9b0039caa7a6e3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:21:59 - 12:35:54","會議時間":"2024-04-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條、第二十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員吳宗憲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一、第十五條之二及第十五條之四條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（十四）委員吳宗憲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等52人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名、第一百四十一條之一及第一百四十一條之二條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百四十條之一條文草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）委員羅智強等20人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條及第一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員魯明哲等24人擬具「立法委員互選院長副院長辦法第一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案（四）、（五）、（七）、（十一）至（十五）及第二案（二）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【僅進行詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時22分）麻煩行政院副秘書長。副秘書長，我知道您的專業是大傳、傳播嘛，但是有關一些法律的部分，我還是要提出來一些問題。我有看過行政院這一次對於我們修法的報告，我知道您主修不是法律，所以就細節的部分，我也不會為難，但是我必須講，就是麻煩你們行政院同仁要認真一點，我待會會把資料給你，他不能牛頭不對馬嘴的來批評我們的提案，如果他今天講這個有什麼違憲之虞或什麼，我覺得那是價值上的判斷，有沒有違憲是個人上的判斷，但你不能拿A案跟我無關的東西來批評我的B案啊！不能這麼幹，等一下我會給你看，不一樣的東西不能這樣亂批評，除非寫這些的人就是要糊弄你們這些長官，那我就無話可說了。但是我看到他的報告是在糊弄你們這些長官，因為他就是要寫給你看他要批評這些立法委員的提案，但是他拿的東西必須要像個樣子的來批評，他不能拿不一樣的東西來批評，所以我必須在這邊提出，貴院這幾個批評我們法案的那幾個人，所寫的東西我真的覺得蠻low的，算了！我有時候看到這樣，我覺得不應該啦，要認真一點，至少我當立法委員也是認真在看每一個東西。"],["何副秘書長佩珊：我可以先跟您澄清，這份報告我看過，而且我自己親自改過，所以這個我負完全的責任，不要怪罪我們的同仁。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，就這樣啦！所以我剛剛有說，我說您的主修不是這個嘛！沒關係，待會我再跟你說大概狀況是出在哪裡。當然今天我們講了很多第585號的部分，第585號認定立法院在有必要的狀況下，其實是有調查權得以行使的，對不對？這個應該沒有問題吧？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：是，我同意。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請教一下，我們之前有提到金門撞船那個案子，我們如果成立調閱小組，你認為有違憲的問題嗎？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：金門這個案子因為牽涉到國安，我覺得可能要釐清一下。"],["吳委員宗憲：可能要什麼？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：釐清。因為國安屬於行政特權吧，委員，是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，沒關係，讓你這樣講。那我這邊來跟你說明我的見解好了。第一個，當然第585號已經說明的非常清楚，立法院在職權行使上面其實有一定的調查權。再來是不管海巡署有沒有配備有沒有密錄器，船隻、油料以及人員的費用，這個都是國家的預算嘛，立法院本來就這個部分就有審查的權限，所以就這個部分去加以調查，我個人認為是沒有什麼違憲的問題，這段時間就這個部分好像大家有所爭執，沒關係，我剛剛就是表示我的意見，不管副秘書長的想法怎麼樣，我都尊重。","繼續再請教你，就第585號我們今天所談到的，你們拿第585號來說我們這一次提的修法是有問題的，好吧，這樣講好了，我先回過頭跟大家講一個東西好了，我先提一下，就我們這次國會改革，早期從2016一路過來，其實民進黨有很多相關類似提案，在多次的訪問還有很多我都有提過，像顧立雄也有提過，李俊俋也有提過。顧立雄的版本當時吳思瑤委員也是連署的提案人之一，剛剛他講了很多關於憲法、法律、命令的法律位階，當然這個法律位階是沒有問題，我覺得他講的都很OK，都沒有問題，但這東西到底有沒有違憲，這絕對不是立法委員或是官員任何人可以說了算，我想這個還是要等最後大法官怎麼認定，這個絕對不是像剛剛拿了一個法律的位階圖，然後跟你說法律不能違背憲法，所以你們不能做這樣的修法，那這個是廢話，這絕對是廢話，因為這是法律的ABC。我們今天要討論的是為什麼你認定我們的修法叫作違憲，而不是說法律只要違反憲法就是違憲，所以你叫作違憲，這個不是，這個叫作結論，他現在是倒果為因的認為我們今天的提案是違憲，其實我是聽不太懂他的邏輯是什麼。","從2016開始其實有非常多人，包括顧立雄、包括李俊俋，很多人都一直提出國會其實應該要有一定的調查權，那有一些國會改革的法案，2016到現在，雖然照他所說的沒錯，社會有所變動，但是憲法不可能亂變動，憲法是國家的根本大法，絕對不是像剛剛那幾位委員說的，這個社會有變動，2016到現在有變化，以前認為不違憲，現在變違憲，我跟你講，沒有人這樣解釋憲法的啦！8年內憲法認定就變違憲，這真的會笑死憲法學者，所以這個部分我覺得他剛剛講的是蠻莫名其妙的。","好，那我們再回過頭來看貴院的報告，貴院的報告是引用第585號，認為我們在職權行使法第二十五條、第二十六條所提到的，我的版本有一個是希望處1萬元以上30萬元以下的罰鍰，針對這部分，他是引用第585號，他認為是違反法律的程序。但是我必須講，第585號當時不是在談質詢，他當時在談的是一個調查權的問題，那你怎麼會拿討論調查權的東西放到我這邊在討論質詢的東西呢？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：解釋一下喔，是這樣子，第585號確實是僅止於調查權的範圍，我要強調的是在第585號解釋裡面關於裁罰跟刑罰的部分都被宣告違憲，條文都被宣告違憲……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是這樣，不是這樣，你不能亂解釋！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：等一下，您先聽我說……"],["吳委員宗憲：我這邊要先講，請你不要亂解釋喔！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：不、不！"],["吳委員宗憲：你這是胡說八道！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：我還沒講完……"],["吳委員宗憲：你這是胡說八道！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：等一下，我還沒有講完。"],["吳委員宗憲：釋字怎麼寫的？我跟你講，你收回你剛剛的話！大法官哪有講那一句話？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：這是事實，這是事實，委員你如果讀到後面的話，這樣是沒有錯的，真調會條例裡面……"],["吳委員宗憲：什麼叫作不行？他有說你要經過正當的法律程序……"],["何副秘書長佩珊：委員，司法院在這邊，我可以請司法院副秘書長過來，好嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：你前提沒有講，你就直接下結論，你這是在騙人耶！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：不是，我要澄清……"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有辦法接受你這樣，請你下去，我沒有辦法接受你這樣的說法！我是唸法律的……"],["何副秘書長佩珊：那我請法規會主委來談，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：不必，不用了，我不問你了，我唸法律的，我沒有辦法接受你這樣子胡說八道，行政權不能亂解釋大法官會議解釋，我不能這樣子接受！你不講前提就直接說這樣違憲，莫名其妙嘛！"],["何副秘書長佩珊：委員，這個是事實，這是585釋憲文裡面的事實，他的理由書跟釋憲文本身就是載明相關的行政罰跟刑罰的條文是違憲……"],["吳委員宗憲：時間先暫停嘛，主席要發表意見，時間先暫停！"],["主席：時間先暫停，委員已經請您下去，您不用講了。"],["何副秘書長佩珊：等一下，委員，我還沒有說完。"],["主席：請您不用講了，主席已經告訴您，請您下台……"],["何副秘書長佩珊：我尊重委員的看法……"],["主席：不用！請您下台，我已經告訴您了，奇怪，這是要動用糾察權嗎？"],["何副秘書長佩珊：釋憲文裡面也承認委員有行政罰的……"],["吳委員宗憲：行政官員來立法院，麻煩尊重立法院的主席好嗎？"],["主席：對啊！我是主席，我已經請您下台了，你不用再辯論了。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，我質詢是不發脾氣的，但是副秘書長，你真的讓我生氣了！行政官員怎麼可以這樣隨便解釋大法官會議解釋？"],["主席：好，請回座休息。"],["吳委員宗憲：這部分我必須說不好意思，我必須講我實在是不認同剛剛那一句話，叫作大法官會議直接認定這個是違憲，不是這樣子，而是大法官認為必須符合正當的法定程序跟法律明確性的要求之下，你才能這麼做，並不是說這麼做違憲，所以我不接受這個說法。如果是你剛剛說錯，你必須說你剛剛說錯，說你講太快，我跟你講，我這是第一次在質詢裡面發脾氣。","我必須要講的就是，你們不應該拿兩個不一樣的東西，放到我對於詢答、質詢上面，我認為質詢上面應該要有罰鍰，你不能這樣子隨便拿個大法官會議解釋做這樣的認定，而且我的做法並不是毫無法定程序，我也是要求如果我們認定有這樣，經過國會的決議後是送給行政法院處理，跟之前的作法是由他們直接去下這個決定是不一樣的，所以我不接受你們行政院的答復。","另外，有關你們認為我提的版本第十七條草案第三項，行政院各部會首長跟新任官員經由全體委員三分之一以上連署或附議，由院會議決，就其人事進行聽證。你們說這是我們會侵害到你們的人事決定權，違反憲法分立跟制衡原則。我必須跟貴院說，第一，我們說的是聽證，我的草案寫的非常清楚，是就人事進行聽證，這個怎麼會影響到你的提名權？我也不是說同意權，所以我從頭到尾說的是聽證，聽證是讓國會能夠監督這些院長任命的首長是否符合民意，你硬要拗說這個違反權力分立，我跟你講，就像我之前說的，我們現在在面對行政院，行政院只要對於自己不想要看到的法案，說法就一句話違憲，我跟你講，大家不是沒有唸過書，不要用膝蓋來思考事情，不能這樣子做。就像你剛講的，為什麼我覺得你們不應該這麼說，你今天當到行政院這麼高的官，然後你這樣解釋，之前我遇過很多官員在那邊兜圈子，亂說一通，那我也覺得好吧，那就算了，但是今天我沒有辦法接受這樣子。更何況副秘書長以前是柯總召的助理，你應該很清楚立法院怎麼運作，你應該非常清楚，說真的我沒有辦法接受政府總是用錯誤的訊息來誤導人民，這是不應該的，以前這樣可以，現在這樣不行，跟我說這是因為社會在轉變，如果社會在轉變會這麼嚴重的影響憲法，幾年內憲法就整個翻轉，那憲法就不叫作中華民國的根本大法！我真的是真心這樣認為，我這個人的腦子也是一條線、很直的人，法律怎麼規定，我就怎麼做，甚至我最近的一些發言跟黨內也不一樣，我還是堅守我的立場，我一直都是這樣，甚至人家說你為什麼要維護民進黨、維護賴清德，我說不是，是因為我對於憲法以及法律的認定是這樣，我就要堅守，我很笨，我就是這樣子的人。那我剛剛沒有辦法接受行政院的這兩個見解，而行政院對於法律、對於大法官會議的說法，我也沒有辦法接受。不好意思，謝謝大家。"],["主席：本席還要再強調一次，在委員會的質詢台上，請尊重質詢委員以及主席的規則，請官員下台的時候不要還一直在備詢台上遲遲不肯下去。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：接下來請沈伯洋委員、沈伯洋委員、沈伯洋委員。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員、賴瑞隆委員。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-11","speakers":["吳宗憲","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","柯建銘","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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立法院"},{"start":160.918,"end":189.112,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。厲?這應該沒有問題嗎?那我想請教一下喔,就是我們之前有提到說這個金門那個撞船的那個案子為什麼我們如果說成立這個調閱小組你認為有違憲的問題嗎?議員楊瓊瓔等25人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 金門這個案子因為牽涉到國安我覺得可能要釐清一下"},{"start":190.149,"end":194.151,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":213.459,"end":240.804,"text":"海巡署所配備的有沒有密錄器、船隻、油料以及人員的費用,這個都是國家的預算嘛。那立法院本來就這個部分就有一個審查的權限。所以就這個部分去加以調查我個人認為是沒有什麼違憲的問題。那這段時間就這個部分好像大家有所爭執。那沒關係我剛剛就表示我的意見,那不然這個副秘書長的想法怎麼樣我覺得我都尊重。"},{"start":242.104,"end":259.27,"text":"我再請教你一個東西我們來看就是就585號我們今天所談到的在585號你們拿這個585號來說我們所提的我們這次的修法是有問題的"},{"start":273.632,"end":279.877,"text":"啊沒有亂講好了我先回過頭去跟大家講一個東西好了啦你剛跳到那個前面那幾個"},{"start":283.691,"end":310.134,"text":"我先提一下就我們這次國會改革其實在早期從2016其實一路過來民進黨有很多相關類似的提案其實在多次的訪問還有很多我都有提過像顧立雄也有提過李俊毅也有提過那再往下那甚至呢在顧立雄的版本或者是那個顧立雄版本裡面其實我們現在的那個無私"},{"start":311.255,"end":339.908,"text":"無效委員他當時也是聯署的提案人之一啦那至於說剛剛他講了很多就是憲法法律命令這個法律未接那當然這個法律未接是沒有問題我覺得他講的都很OK都沒有問題但這東西到底有沒有違憲這絕對不是立法委員或是官員任何人可以說了算我想這個還是要等最後大法官怎麼認定嘛這個絕對不是說像剛剛拿了一個法律的未接圖然後就跟你說法律"},{"start":340.708,"end":367.073,"text":"議員楊瓊瓊"},{"start":368.155,"end":372.901,"text":"從2016開始其實有非常多的人包括顧立雄包括李俊毅包括很多人都一直提出說這個"},{"start":375.912,"end":397.308,"text":"國會其實應該有一定的調查權那他有一些國會改革的法案那2016到現在雖然照他所說的沒錯社會有所變動但是憲法不可能亂變動憲法是國家的根本大法絕對不是像剛剛那幾位委員說的這個社會有變動2016到現在所以有變化所以以前"},{"start":398.489,"end":418.61,"text":"認為不違憲現在變違憲。我跟你講沒有人這樣解釋憲法的啦。八年內憲法認定就會違憲這真的會笑死憲法學者。所以這部分我覺得他剛剛講的是蠻莫名其妙的。好那我們再回過頭來我們來看我們這一次就是貴院的報告。貴院的報告他是認為說他是引用585號"},{"start":421.429,"end":445.676,"text":"他認為我們在這個職權行使法25條26條所提到的有一個我的版本是有一個是希望處這個一萬元以上三十萬元以下的罰款他認為這個東西他當時他是以五八五號他認為是違反法律的程序但是呢我必須講五八五號他當時在談的是"},{"start":447.597,"end":453.921,"text":"五八五號的那個確實他是僅止於這個調查權的範圍喔那麼我要強調的是說在五八五號解釋裡面呢關於裁罰跟刑罰的部分都被宣告違憲條文都被宣告違憲"},{"start":477.517,"end":478.097,"text":"五﹑五﹑五﹑五﹑"},{"start":494.914,"end":510.049,"text":"這是事實。這是事實。委員你如果讀到後面的話是這樣是沒有錯的。爭調會條例裡面關於什麼叫做不行他有說你要經過正當的法律程序你前提沒有講你就直接下結論你這個在騙人欸我沒有辦法接受你這樣"},{"start":513.292,"end":526.499,"text":"請你下去我沒有辦法接受你這說法我念法律的不用我不問你了我念法律的我沒有辦法接受你這樣子胡說八道行政權不能亂解釋大法官會議解釋我不能這樣子接受"},{"start":528.236,"end":553.202,"text":"她的前提,不講前提就直接說她這樣違憲。莫名其妙嘛。司法部釋憲文裡面的事實,她的理由書跟釋憲文本身就是載明相關的行政法跟刑法的條文是委員先暫停嘛。時間先暫停。主席要發表意見,時間先暫停。剛剛那個委員已經請您先下去,您不用講了。等一下委員,我還沒說完。請您不用講了。我們是主席。"},{"start":556.883,"end":577.438,"text":"已經告訴您請您下台然後不用請您下台我已經告訴您了奇怪這是要怎麼樣這個糾察權嗎請政官員來立法院麻煩尊重立法院的主席好嗎我跟你講我質詢是不發脾氣的但是副秘書長你真的讓我生氣了好請你回座休息"},{"start":587.604,"end":587.744,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等52人擬具"},{"start":606.035,"end":631.168,"text":"而正當的法律程序跟法律明確性的要求之下你才能這麼做並不是說這麼做違憲所以我不接受這個說法那如果是你剛剛說錯你必須說你剛剛說錯講太快我跟你講我這是第一次在質詢裡面發脾氣好那我剛剛我必須講的就是你們不應該拿兩個不一樣的東西放到我對於詢答質詢上面我認為質詢上面應該"},{"start":634.807,"end":657.676,"text":"我認為執行上面應該要有這些法環你不能這樣子隨便拿個大法官會議解釋做這樣的認定而且我的做法並不是說毫無那個法定程序我也是要求說如果我們認定有這樣經過國會這邊的那個決議之後是送給行政法院處理"},{"start":658.775,"end":658.815,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":676.138,"end":703.889,"text":"還有就是有關你們認為說我提的版本的第17條草案第三項你們認為說我們講的行政院各部會首長跟新任官員均有全體委員三分之一以上聯署或副議由院會決一決就其人事進行聽證那你們說這個是我們會侵害到你們的人事決定權違反憲法分立跟制衡原則我必須跟"},{"start":705.598,"end":728.748,"text":"貴委員說,第一個我們說的是聽證我的草案寫得非常清楚是就人事進行聽證這個怎麼會影響到你的提名權我也不是說同意權所以我從頭到尾我說的是聽證那聽證是讓國會有監督這些院長任命的首長是否符合民意那你硬要拗說這個違反權利分立"},{"start":730.569,"end":744.899,"text":"好那我跟你講就像我之前說的我們現在在面對行政院行政院只要對於自己不想要看到的法案說法就違憲就一句話違憲我跟你講大家不是沒有念過書不要用膝蓋來思考事情啊"},{"start":745.76,"end":745.88,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":770.031,"end":798.21,"text":"科總召的助理你應該很清楚立法院怎麼在運作嘛你應該非常清楚所以你也知道我說這種我沒有辦法去接受政府總是用錯誤的訊息來誤導人民這是不應該的以前這樣可以現在這樣不行跟我說這個是因為社會在轉變如果社會在轉變會這麼嚴重的影響憲法幾年內憲法就整個翻轉那憲法就不叫做中華民國的根本大法"},{"start":799.568,"end":814.144,"text":"我真的是真心這樣認為啦那我這個人腦子也是一條線很直的人法律怎麼規定我就怎麼做甚至我最近的一些發言跟黨內也不一樣我還是堅守我的立場我一直都是這樣甚至人家說你為什麼要維護"},{"start":815.245,"end":833.4,"text":"我互民進黨我互賴清德我說不是因為我對於憲法以及法律的認定是這樣我就要堅守我很笨我就是這樣子的人那我剛剛沒有辦法接受行政院的這兩個見解那行政院你們的對於法律對於大法官會議的說法我也沒有辦法接受不好意思謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}