{"error":false,"id":["150837"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150837,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150837","日期":"2024-04-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-02T10:16:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-02T10:31:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcd4582d8790757516da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a667518d6a02a6d9265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:16:24 - 10:31:55","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時16分）謝謝院長，我們請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：審計長好。審計長，我就直接進入主題，我們在前瞻第3期中編列將近79億的綠能建設預算，要達到的目標包含電網提升、能源轉型，還有綠能技術建設開發等，而這些目標包含有台電的經營效能，剛好這個都是本席過去一再質疑我們台電年年虧損與政府能源政策失當的原因。現在我們看到電價在漲，今年我們還繼續要補助台電1,000億，加上經濟部王美花部長也證實我們再生能源發電占比達20%的這個政策目標在2025年顯然沒有辦法達成，現在預估要到2026年10月才能夠達成，因此我們很明顯的可以看出來，前瞻計畫的綠能建設花費到現在還是看不到有顯著的效益！","對於台電，政府之前連續二年透過預算先後編列經費補助了台電共2,500億，其實這2,500億我認為也是一種變相的特別預算，更不用說我們在疫後特別預算中也編列了500億來補助台電。所以本席要請問審計長，第一，預算法第八十三條關於特別預算編列的規定，對於用這些變相的特別預算去補助台電，這樣是合理的嗎？這樣持續的補助，台電的虧損卻還是繼續的擴大，審計長，您認為這樣的變相補助是否應該要停止？請審計長先回答。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我是希望台電要強化經營體質，加強開源節流啦，因為台電的虧損原因多端，原因有很多，第一個，電價的售電電價不是都低於成本，第二個，它的負債利息也很高，電網韌性也拆除了很多，造成資本支出的損失，所以它有很多要去強化經營管理的地方。"],["林委員思銘：審計長，您剛才也提到因為原物料上漲以及其他諸多的原因，但是我在總質詢時也問過行政院陳院長，對於台電連年虧損到底什麼時候才能夠停止，如果能源政策不加以修正的話，是不是我們每年還是會看到台電的赤字，還是連年虧損，都要靠我們編列相關預算去做補助？","看到這樣的情況，站在審計部的立場，你要如何對台電做出建議？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個因為剛剛有講嘛，如果它的售價低於成本，它想要賺錢就很難，所以……"],["林委員思銘：為什麼售價會低於成本呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當然是原因很多，原因很多……"],["林委員思銘：所以這個綠能政策……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：包括燃料採購策略是怎麼樣，還有怎麼樣管理等等，都很多，也有剛剛講的綠能這方面，但是綠能現在是一個趨勢，因為現在是要往減碳的方向來走，氣候變遷很厲害，所以這個……"],["林委員思銘：審計長，當然綠能是現在全世界各國都在努力的目標啦，剛剛我們就講到說，對於台電，在預算的整個編列上，我們看到用了很多特別預算連年在補助它，到底什麼時候能夠停止，我想站在審計部的立場，您要做出中肯的建議，做出建言啦！好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們對台電的這個部分會加強，給它一些意見。"],["林委員思銘：是。另外剛才有好多位委員都一直提到預算法第八十三條的規定，當然這一次也有很多委員提案要刪除第四款「不定期或數年一次之重大政事」的規定，希望我們特別預算未來在編列時要儘量避免以所謂「重大政事」這樣的情形來作為特別預算編列的一個項目，所以我想請教審計長，您贊不贊成將預算第法八十三條第四款所規定的「不定期或數年一次之重大政事」予以刪除？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我剛剛非常同意委員說的「儘量避免」，所以要用這一款就必須要儘量慎重。"],["林委員思銘：儘量慎重？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：慎重，要做好很多的計畫評估，並且要落實，就是編列完了以後要落實，好好的去執行。"],["林委員思銘：審計長，儘量避免我們都知道，但是常常就是沒有辦法避免。我們看到這幾年來政府常常利用這一款來編列所謂的特別預算，所以我才會問你，委員們認為這一條好像常常被用來作為政府舉債的一個非常重要的依據，因為你講「重大政事」，但「重大政事」這四個字是一個很不確定的法律概念，到底什麼情形之下符合叫做「重大政事」？我想這個部分就會讓我們執政的政府有一個很大的空間用這一款來編列特別預算，所以您贊不贊成這一款應該予以刪除，讓政府的財政紀律能夠走向正常化、常態化？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要用這一款，大部分都會訂特別條例，訂了特別條例都會送到大院來審議，所以這個是不是重大，大院可以來評估、來看，所以這一條主要是在執行方面可能要注意，在編列後的執行方面要注意。"],["林委員思銘：審計長，現在我是問你的意見啦，因為本院已經有好多位委員建議要刪除，那您的看法呢？其實我一直強調這是一個很不確定的法律概念，您剛才也提到要用這一款來編列特別預算要很審慎，要符合預算科目的項目，所謂的重大建設，但是在法律上這是一個很不確定的法律概念，所以我才會就教您，您贊不贊成把它刪除呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們從90年到現在編了40個特別預算，裡面用到這一款的將近一半，所以用這一款的機會很多，但我還是比較偏向慎重，因為這對國家來說是多了一個編預算的方式，所以你說……"],["林委員思銘：但是您認不認為……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要把它廢除，我也……"],["林委員思銘：您認不認為常用這一款來編列特別預算是破壞我們的財政紀律？把它常態化就是在破壞財政紀律。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：只要我們的計畫所產生的效益大於我們的預算規模。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們講說，您剛才也提到從過去以來有四十幾次編列特別預算嘛，但是您有沒有去審計過這四十幾件每一件都是符合這個條款的預算編列？您有沒有做出審計過？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們審計是站在後端，是依照立法院通過的預算，還有它做的決議來做審計……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以您來做最後的建議嘛，提出建議嘛。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們會對他執行的效能提出建議。"],["林委員思銘：對，你會提出建議嘛，那你認為這四十幾件都符合它的執行效益嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：效能我們都會追，到現在前瞻的各項效能，我們都還在追。"],["林委員思銘：好，我想這個議題你也不敢很正面的答復我，但是我想我們立法院有好多位立委都已經提出刪除的建議，我想為了讓我們的財政紀律能夠更好、更常態化，不要動輒用這一條款來編列特別預算而破壞我們的財政紀律，審計長還是要針對過去運用這個項目來編列特別預算的部分做一個中肯的建議，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好。第二個問題再請教，關於111年總決算審核的部分，審計部就數位身分證的換發指出，因為契約暫停執行，而須支付逾1.3億元給中央印製廠，但根據內政部長林右昌在上個月表示，經過調解後，還須另外支付給廠商的調解金額壓在2億8,000萬上下，林部長甚至還說2億多元已經是最好的結果。數位身分證從執行面也好，或者是從立法面也好，從頭到尾就是政府沒有做完善的評估與準備，導致我們的民眾還沒能拿到新式的證件之前，就必須掏腰包來幫助政府善後，可以說是全世界最貴而且還是拿不到的身分證。所以本席想請問審計長，數位身分證的政策失敗，並且要支付這麼高額的賠償金，這筆帳是要誰來買單？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們有提出審核意見，因為他未審視，就如委員所提的，因為在開始的時候沒有審慎評估計畫的可行性，所以後來採購發生了一些問題，因為你的計畫停了，這會有違約，也增加了一些經費，我們也提出了……"],["林委員思銘：審計長，因為時間的關係，那您告訴我，最後您的審核意見是什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們送請監察院……"],["林委員思銘：移送監察院來核處嘛？是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員思銘：好。另外，我們覺得更離譜的是，我們已經採購的機器，林右昌部長說可能因為沒有辦法密集使用，但仍持續編列6,357萬元的預算，以支付印製廠設備暫停執行的必要費用。請問審計部是否有去督核這些花費是否合當，以及這些機器後續到底要如何處理，就繼續編列這些機器的維護費用，但是卻擺著不用，審計部是否有去查核、追究相關的責任，並再提出新的審核報告？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這部分我們也有提出來預警他，這個要一直維護，到底最後會用到嗎？因為它的維護一年也花掉不少錢，所以這個就要評估……"],["林委員思銘：6,357萬，民脂民膏，一年要花這麼多錢，擺在那邊沒有用……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們就叫他要好好的評估一下，因為做一個決策要想到，這個如果以後不用了，或者是以後用不到，或者效能變了，這些都要考量，所以要不要再維持它的可運轉的狀態呢？我們有提出相關的審核意見給內政部。"],["林委員思銘：有沒有追究相關的責任？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分因為已經提供到監察院，監察院會做……"],["林委員思銘：所以這個部分也有移請監察院做核處了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：監察院正在瞭解之中。"],["林委員思銘：正在瞭解、調查了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員思銘：好。我再請問審計長，交通部路政及道安司在上個月公布，112年交通死亡人數為3,023人，這次的審核報告提到僅比110年的3,085人減少大概62個人，但是我們看到交通事故總計有40萬2,926件，則是較前年增加了2萬7,082件，整體的事故還有受傷人數皆不減反增，所以我想請問審計長，政府已經花大錢在前瞻計畫上，希望能夠提高交通安全，但是交通部對於這個所謂的提升道路品質計畫的目標，並沒有做到它所希望達到年降5%交通死亡人數這樣的一個標準。在這次的審計報告中也提到，全國市區道路仍有超過三分之一的人行道淨寬不足最低的標準。這次在審計報告第12頁也提到，全國有超過三分之一的市區道路尚未有電纜地下化，像我們新竹、竹北、高鐵特區這些新興區域還有很多道路沒有完成電纜地下化，所以請問審計部是否也有將這些新興區域的道路改善列入考核的範圍之內？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們會繼續追蹤考核，我們現在也在做整個道安的專案調查，也會列到112年度的審核報告，我們目前正在做。"],["林委員思銘：是，我想對於電纜地下化還有人行道的寬度不足這些部分，我們還是希望審計部要持續的考核各個地方政府，也要責成交通部，為了改善我們的交通，對這幾個部分一定要儘速、趕快來做，以上，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝委員給我們這麼好的意見。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員思銘的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第6號郭委員國文詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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紀部你是否有去查核﹐追究相關責任﹐並再提出新的審核報告?"},{"start":721.188,"end":744.8,"text":"這個部分我們也有提出來也有意見他你這個要一直維護到底最後的使用會用到嗎?因為他的維護一年也花掉不少錢所以這個又添357萬民脂民膏一年要花這麼多錢我們就叫他好好的評估一下因為要"},{"start":745.64,"end":772.26,"text":"做一個決策要想到說這個如果以後不用了或者是以後用不到了或者效能變了這些都要考量所以你要不要再維持它的可運轉的狀態呢我們就提出相關的審核意見給內政部那有沒有追究相關的責任這個部分因為已經提供到監察院因為這個監察院不會做所以這個部分也是有提請監察院做何處"},{"start":775.522,"end":799.192,"text":"監察院正在了解之中正在了解調查所以我再請問這個審議長就是我們交通部路政及道政司及道安司在上個月有公布112年我們這個交通死亡人數為3023人那上個月這次的審核報告提到的僅比我們這個"},{"start":801.513,"end":825.489,"text":"一百一十年的三千零八十五人減少大概六十二個人但是我們看到交通事故總計有四十萬兩千九百二十六件則是較前年增加了兩萬七千零八十二件那麼整體的事故還有傷亡人數受傷人數皆不減反增所以我想這個"},{"start":830.645,"end":855.734,"text":"請問我們陳記長政府已經花大錢在前瞻計畫上希望能夠提高交通安全但我們又看不到交通部這種有對於我們所謂的提升道路品質計畫的目標並沒有做到測他所希望達到的年降5%交通死亡人數這樣的一個標準"},{"start":857.074,"end":866.365,"text":"我們在這次的審計報告中也提到全國市區道路仍有超過三分之一的人行道徑寬是不足最低最低的標準"},{"start":867.256,"end":887.992,"text":"我們這次在審計報告第12頁也提到全國有超過三分之一的市區道路尚未有電纜地下化像我們新竹竹北高鐵特區這些新興區域就是還有很多道路沒有完成電纜地下化所以請問審計部是否也有將這些新興區域的道路改善列為考核的範圍之內"},{"start":889.78,"end":918.163,"text":"這個部分我們會繼續追蹤考核我們現在也在做整個道安的專案調查我們會列到112年度的審核報告現在目前正在做我想這個對於我們電纜地下化這一個部分還有我們人行道的寬度不足這部分我們還是希望省紀部要持續的考核我們各個地方政府也要責成交通部"},{"start":918.763,"end":921.967,"text":"我們為了改善我們的交通這幾個部分一定要盡"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}