{"error":false,"id":["150842"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150842,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150842","日期":"2024-04-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-02T11:43:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-02T11:59:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcc28b604d3b2ee290da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6e92a92b80374a8335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:43:40 - 11:59:06","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時43分）謝謝主席，感謝有記住我姓鍾、不姓徐，謝謝院長。有請我們的陳審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長好。我們看到這次有常態的年度決算以及特別決算，我要請教一下審計長，這個決算審計當然依法包括在財務上要審核財務收支、在績效上要提出建議跟預警，你覺得在這三個決算當中，其合法性的審議還OK嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：還OK。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有財務上的很多違失呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有查到一些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一些啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好像有重複發啦！或者溢領啦！不合資格領……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我看到您的報告，我是特別重視對績效性審計您的意見。這三個決算，它的規模大概是加起來有多少？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：差不多3、4兆。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3兆7,500億。好，分別是2兆7,000億、8,300億及2,200億，我們往下來看，目前你提出了10項審計的意見，我很重視，你特別提到防疫紓困振興決算一個部分，前瞻第三期一個部分，然後關於111年度的總決算提出了包括安全的部分，你提到交通安全、資通安全、毒品防制；人口的部分你提到了少子女化的對策還有長照2.0；關於居住的部分你提到都市更新、都市計畫跟青年居住，是不是？顯見審計長很重視這幾個項目。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們現在在發展關鍵議題，對於國際、民生……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，底下我就依序根據您的意見，我來提出我的看法。首先，我們看到您提到這次111年度的決算當中，有發現臺灣中油跟台電有虧損，什麼原因造成的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有談到燃料價格在上漲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就國際燃料價格的上漲，成本提高嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在這種情況之下為了避免，我們在審計建議上，我們覺得它是不是應該適當調整電價？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這一方面因為涉及民生問題……"],["鍾委員佳濱：從審計的角度是不是應該要考慮成本提升要調整？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：成本要提升以外，台電因為它的負債，它的利息費用也大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它的負債是來自於之前電價低、成本高所造成的，你看其他國家電價也是漲得很兇，那我們電價要不要反映成本，你認為從審計的角度，電價要不要反映成本？這兩間公司。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果在整個經營體質強化以後，我認為如果再沒有要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要反映成本？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你覺得目前我們電價的調整，大戶漲幅高，但是小戶微調，你覺得這樣對於民生的衝擊是不是相對比較輕？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：已經有考慮到了，但是能夠儘量考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以我們來繼續看，在111年度的總決算當中，您提到財政紀律，歲入歲出的平衡，你提到歲入歲出的賸餘將近有5,000億，還了1,500億的債，你覺得目前的財政收支結構是否有改善了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為財政收支結構就在看經常收支這塊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：經常收支這一塊已經有大幅改善。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大幅改善？很好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：已經多了五、六千億的賸餘。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以國家的財政體質有改善。所以你看一看各國政府的債務比，目前以臺灣來看，我們的債務占 GDP的比重，你覺得臺灣算是表現得怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該比其他國家好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都來得好嘛！我們只有24.1%嘛！一年期以上的債務的GDP占比很低嘛！是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：表示我們國家未來在因應國家的各種需要、各種突發狀況，我們有餘裕，如果有必要舉債的話，我們是禁得起的，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，因為還有一、兩兆的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一、兩兆的空間，很好，你講出了一、兩兆的空間，那麼防疫跟紓困振興計畫當中你提到了，我請教一下，這將近八千三百多億當中，你覺得哪個部會執行的比例最高？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該在振興裡面是經濟部最高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是管振興，就防疫紓困振興，一般人聽到防疫紓困振興，直覺就反應什麼？衛福部啦、買疫苗啦、買口罩啦、照顧這些病患花最多錢，事實上是不是這樣子？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為在振興這一塊花掉了將近4,000億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，我們經濟部擔任經濟部主管的就是三千三百多億，占了4成，衛福部主管的不到3成，所以重點，如果你們審計報告的話，你們重點要看什麼？看經濟部跟這些紓困跟振興的，是不是比較是重點？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的，我們會按照……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我要跟審計長說，你們花了很多篇幅在討論疫苗，我說一個八千三百多億的大餅要你們去審計，要是我是你的話，我先看什麼？花最多的，紓困跟振興將近多少？4,000億嘛！當中經濟部最主要嘛！花了三千三百多億嘛！你知道經濟部這三千三百多億花在哪裡？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：大概補貼企業的這些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有個人的三倍券、五倍券嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：三倍券、五倍券加起來花了超過一千六百多億嘛！占了一半嘛！其他的就是補貼企業，減少他們的衝擊嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經濟部這三千三百多億當中有一半是個人濟弱對不對？讓這些弱勢的可以拿到補貼；另外的扶傾，企業營運遇到困難的，幫助它繼續戰下去。好，如果從這幾個角度來看，最重要的防疫紓困振興當中，我們重視的你們看到了，你們告訴我們說這裡面有重複領的，你覺得嚴不嚴重、比例高不高？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們查到差不多應該繳回了九億多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3,944億元的紓困運動當中，應該追繳的占不到0.3%，比例算很低吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們遇到緊急情況的時候要從優、從速……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，就是從優、從速、從寬。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們顧在後面，讓這個制度能推動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以重要的緊急狀況從優、從速，應該關心、注意的是需要幫助的人有沒有得到幫助，不是計較少數人有沒有占小便宜，是不是這樣子？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要問你們，你們的審計報告應該放在到底這些錢花下去，需要幫助的人有沒有都拿到，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們得到幫助之後夠不夠？人都快餓死了，你給他兩個包子，他有得到幫助，但是活不下去，所以我要問你們的審計報告有沒有注意到經濟部對企業的振興或紓困，有沒有幫助這些企業活起來、活回來、站下去？有沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會整個看過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們看過之後，有沒有達到你們覺得應該有的績效？這些錢給這些需要幫助的企業或個人，有幫助他繼續經營下去嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們看這幾年的經濟成長都非常良好，就知道這方面有一些那個……但是我們會注意到弱勢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長，你這樣講就讓我覺得不夠專業，這個錢花下去有沒有效果，你說看起來都活得不錯，所以應該效果不錯，我是覺得你們要花點時間去經濟部調一調這些資料，你知道這些錢花給誰嗎？那些營業額不到20萬的、免用統一發票的，我們1家給4萬塊，你知道吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：知道，委員很關注這一塊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我很重視這一塊。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些小店家有沒有因為這些紓困的預算砸下去而度過難關？你們有沒有去追蹤？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們要去追蹤，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要去看一下，這些錢撒下去了，需要幫助人拿到了，但是夠不夠？有沒有幫助他站起來？所以我希望你們對於後續補貼申請跟營運的資料要繼續蒐集，不是說這個決算就通過了，到底這個錢有沒有效果？你說都活得很好，所以有效，不信！你們要用數據的方式去統計，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝，我們會照委員的意思。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以誰需要補助、誰值得投資，我這邊提出一個看法，我過去在院會的時候有提出，我希望能讓小店家減輕稅務負擔，過去我們的起徵點，20萬以下免用統一發票的營業稅大概是4萬、8萬，服務業4萬、一般其他的8萬免徵，到20萬之間的規模呢？1%營業稅。20萬以上要用統一發票，要5%的營業稅，我曾經提出可不可以把起徵點提高到20萬，要開發票才要徵營業稅，而且20萬到50萬之間，我們跟它徵1%的營業稅優惠，你知道這個1%營業稅的優惠構想從哪裡來嗎？是我們2018年賴清德院長的時候，他為了鼓勵青年創業，這些青年創業會用行動支付，只要你使用行動支付，就算營業額從十幾萬變成二十幾萬、三十幾萬，都可以繼續適用1%的營業稅優惠，你覺得這個政策好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道它明年要落日了嗎？到明年為止。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果政策好、效益大……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也支持繼續推動？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要繼續推動。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！所以我就提出來了，今年財政部考慮要把這些小店家的起徵點調高到14萬跟7萬，當然離我的目標20萬還有點距離，但是我接下來的主張是什麼？比照我們賴院長時期給予20萬到50萬規模的營業者，他的營業稅本來是5%，給予有條件的1%優惠，而20萬以下通通免徵營業稅，這些人將近52萬、53萬，減少的稅收只少收34.7億。你知道我們營業稅單單是2022年就收了多少錢嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：五千多億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，五千多億，少個三十幾億，你覺得國家承擔得起嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個可以促進，因為他們是小本生意，能夠幫他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，小規模的。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個對我們整個社會的平等很重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你也支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝。所以再看到前瞻計畫，前瞻三期大概2,200億，對不對？你覺得它有什麼效果？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：它提升了一些工作，這是國科會有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在你們的報告裡面，它創造14萬個就業機會，也帶動4,000億的民間投資，你覺得划不划算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這應該是划算的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你們的審計意見是要提升執行能力，要加強對地方的管考，還有未辦理可行性研究及綜合評估，我覺得你們寫的很一般啦！創造了就業機會，帶動了民間投資，你覺得值不值得我們未來的賴總統繼續延續蔡總統在2016年8年8,000億的前瞻建設，未來的國家希望工程也繼續投資？現在國家的財政，你說大概有一、兩兆的空間，你支不支持未來的內閣繼續推動類似前瞻基礎建設，帶動國家基礎建設，幫助國家發展的特別預算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們審計一般都尊重行政部門或者大院……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那從前瞻預算決算的執行效能，你覺得是有效果的嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：砸下去，我們會很注意效能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，那也值得未來繼續推動。好，那我先問你，你覺得未來我們要是再做一個類似前瞻的希望工程，國家特別預算大概要用多少？3兆、2兆、1兆，你覺得規模大概多少，參考蔡總統的8年8,000億？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我還是考慮要稍微注意到財政的承受性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得3兆可能嗎？3兆？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我還是要評估這個財政的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3兆超過我們的中央政府總預算對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：財政的承受性，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那2兆比較有可能？2兆？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個因為我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是因為你剛剛有說到……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們沒有評估……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們目前的財政結構健全，一、兩兆的舉債空間都有嘛！那保守一點，1兆是不是比較可以承擔的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我是比較偏向財政的永續還是要考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：永續嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但你剛剛提到臺灣最近幾年的財政發展餘裕良好，還有一、兩兆的空間。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：還有建設的成本……還有效益，效益也重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果我們的財政還有這麼一點點的空間，大概1兆的空間，你覺得我們有辦法去支持一個2,500億的花東快、去支持一個8,000億的國六延花蓮段，甚至有人評估要花2兆的環島高鐵，加起來3兆，這樣的特別預算未來有可能在8年內去執行嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我都尊重行政院，還有大院的整個決議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我來總和，我們現在國家的財政餘裕大概還有一、兩兆的舉債空間，如果有人主張要去推動超過3兆的計畫，就要評估了。但是什麼可以做呢？我們來看一下，你有沒有聽過桃園機場歲修跑道塞機，有沒有聽過？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個報紙都有報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，你覺得是什麼受到影響？是客運受到影響，還是貨運受到影響？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我直接告訴你啦！臺灣的空運有九成六在桃園，貨運有五成一在桃園，桃園機場塞機影響的不是客運啦！影響是貨運啦！貨運當中最重要是半導體的晶片出口，半導體產業重要不重要？對臺灣重不重要？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：當然重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且半導體的產業重心已經南移，所以未來我們希望在南部建一個國際貨運機場，你覺得這有沒有助於符合未來臺灣10年半導體產業的出口需求？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：整個台積電在中南部都已經落腳了，所以可能都是一個很好的評估方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在你的口頭報告當中有肯定前瞻建設，經濟成果再投入強化特定建設，111年的總決算你有提到長照2.0、少子化對策、毒品防制等未來繼續加強，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你肯定了這三項。好，那現在我們省錢還債之後，什麼值得投資？你覺得如果依據目前臺灣育兒現況調查，值不值得投資在我們的幼兒照顧上？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們現在少子化，幼兒的照顧非常重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們看到這裡面最重要是什麼？就是幼保員的薪水啦！其實相較於國中小教師，他們的薪水偏低，如果未來政府行有餘力提升他們的薪水，你覺得有沒有幫助？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個當然有幫助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我最後的結論，我們聽今天的決算報告，電價要合理調整；財政強化，特別預算可以投入特定建設、年度預算投資下一代；幫助青年創業，我們也支持小店家優惠稅率調升擴大適用範圍，你覺得如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我一直支持委員的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：太好了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員佳濱的詢問，再一次謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","報告院會，上午會議進行到此為止，下午2時30分繼續開會，進行審核報告之諮詢，現在休息。","休息（11時59分）","繼續開會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強"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我的主張是什麼"},{"start":597.594,"end":606.761,"text":"就是說比照我們賴院長時期給予20萬到50萬規模的營業者他的營業稅本來5%給他有條件的1%的優惠而20萬以下的通通是免徵營業稅這樣子這些人將近52萬、53萬他減少的稅收只少收了34.7億你知道我們營業稅單單是2022年營業稅收了多少錢嗎"},{"start":624.943,"end":650.684,"text":"五千多億對五千多億少個三十幾億你覺得國家承擔得起嗎這個可以促進因為他們是小本生意能夠幫他這個因為對我們整個社會平等很重要所以你也支持謝謝那我們往下看所以在看到你的前瞻計畫前瞻三期大概2200億對不對那你覺得他有什麼效果"},{"start":652.193,"end":674.63,"text":"他提升了一些工作這是國科會有你們的報告裡面他創造了14萬個就業機會也帶動了4千億的民間投資你覺得划不划算這應該是划算的但是你們的審計意見當中要提升執行能力要加強對地方的管考還有未來有沒有沒有辦法行行民國的研究規劃我覺得你們寫的就很一般"},{"start":676.233,"end":699.618,"text":"創造了就業機會：帶動了民間投資未來你覺得值不值得我們未來的賴總統繼續延續蔡總統在2016年8年8千億的前瞻建設未來的國家西方工程也繼續投資我們現在國家的財政你說大概有一兩兆的空間你知不支持未來的內閣繼續推動類似前瞻基礎建設這樣帶動國家基礎建設幫助國家發展的特別預算"},{"start":703.559,"end":721.159,"text":"我們損失啊一般都尊重行政部門好好地答應那你從這個前瞻預算的決算的執行效能你覺得是有效果的嘛對不對當然 扎下去我們會很注意效能對 那也值得未來繼續推動好 那我先問你喔你覺得未來我們要是再做一個類似前瞻的"},{"start":721.819,"end":740.406,"text":"希望工程國家特別預算大概要用多少三兆兩兆一兆你覺得規模大概多少參考到蔡總統的八年八千八百億我還是考慮到要稍微注意到財政的承受性你覺得三兆可能嗎三兆我還是要評估這個財政的承受性那兩兆怎麼可能兩兆"},{"start":748.115,"end":755.386,"text":"但是你剛剛有說到我們目前的財政結構健全嘛一兩兆的舉在空間都有嘛那保守一點一兆是不是比較可以承擔的"},{"start":756.803,"end":784.949,"text":"我是比較偏向財政的永續還是有考慮永續嘛對不對但你剛剛提到台灣的最近幾年的財政發展呢餘裕良好還有一兩兆的成本還有建設的成本還有效益如果我們的財政還有這麼一點點的空間大概一兆的空間你覺得我們有辦法去支持一個2500億的花東塊去支持一個8000億的國六研發連段甚至有人評估要花兩兆的黃藻高鐵加起來三兆"},{"start":785.709,"end":807.802,"text":"這樣的特別預算未來有可能在8年內去執行嗎?我整個都尊重行政院還有大院的整個決議所以我就是總和我們現在國家的財政餘裕大概還有1、2兆的舉財空間如果有人主張要去推動超過3兆的計畫我就要評估啦往下看但是怎麼可以做呢?我們來看一下你有沒有聽過桃園機場稅休跑到塞機"},{"start":808.956,"end":812.97,"text":"有沒有聽過你覺得是怎麼受到影響是客運受到影響還是貨運受到影響"},{"start":816.912,"end":846.108,"text":"這個我沒有我直接告訴你啦台灣的空運啊貨運有九成六在桃園啊五成一在桃園啊桃園機場塞機影響的不是客運啊影響的是貨運啊貨運當中最重要的是我們半陶體的晶片出口啦半陶體產業重不重要對台灣重不重要當然很重要而且半陶體的產業重心已經難移啊所以未來呢我們希望在南部建一個國際的貨運機場你覺得這有沒有有助於符合未來台灣十年半陶體產業的出口需求"},{"start":847.52,"end":873.165,"text":"整個看台積電在中南部已經都有漏腳了所以可能這個都是一個很好的評估方向那在你的那個口頭報當中有肯定前瞻建設新規成果再投入強化特定建設110年的總決算你有提到長照2.0少數化對策住民房子未來繼續加強對不對對你肯定了這三項好那現在我們省錢還債之後什麼值得投資"},{"start":874.005,"end":898.142,"text":"你覺得如果目前台灣的育兒情況來調查值不值得投資在我們的幼兒照顧上因為我們現在少主要幼兒照顧非常重要非常重要好所以我們看到這裡面最重要是什麼就是幼兒幼保員的薪水啦其實相較於我們的國中小教師他們的薪水偏低如果未來政府行有餘力提升他們的薪水你覺得有沒有幫助這個當然有幫助"},{"start":900.077,"end":923.128,"text":"好所以我最後的結論直接跳到最後一頁我們聽今天的決算報告呢電價要合理調整我們財政的強化特別預算可以投入特定建設年度預算投資下一代幫助青年創業我們也支持小店家優惠稅率調升擴大適用範圍你覺得如何我一直支持委員的意見太好了謝謝謝謝鍾委員嘉賓的"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}