{"error":false,"id":["150849"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150849,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150849","日期":"2024-04-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-02T15:01:19+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-02T15:16:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/724864d01d76e7fcc63d6173a19051a9da4f99791438ae9df8ba9b0039caa7a6bf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"15:01:19 - 15:16:54","會議時間":"2024-04-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第7次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。是否有當？請公決案等3案。（3月29日） \n二、審計長列席報告中華民國111年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（4月2日）\n三、3月29日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、4月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":827,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（15時1分）謝謝主席，我請審計長。"],["主席：再請陳審計長備詢。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：審計長辛苦了。審計長，請教一下，我們今天主要是針對前瞻基礎建設還有111年度的審計報告，事實上這本報告在去年就出爐了，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我也不曉得為什麼我們的諮詢會排在這麼後面，我還以為會有最新的審計報告。去年這份報告曾經引起軒然大波，我相信當時你們也有很多的壓力，尤其前瞻計畫，在這份報告裡面呈現的就是對於各縣市政府補助款有嚴重的落差，比如說那時候臺北市才184億，但是高雄有一千兩百多億，那時曾經有這個話題，我知道其實你們壓力非常大，所以我想請教審計長，去年這樣的壓力會不會影響審計部未來對行政院，不管是公務預算或者特別預算在審計上面的尺度和標準，會不會？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不會，因為這是我們的職責，尤其透明還有課責是我們審計要執行的。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們會盡到我們的職責，完全沒有受到影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：去年我把這本書幾乎都翻過一遍，事實上我還蠻佩服審計部同仁的努力，所以我希望審計部能夠繼續維持這樣的功能跟責任。另外我要請教，今天我們一直在說去年的稅收超徵高達3,700億，請問一下，這個金額審計部核定了嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：112年的部分，行政院還在辦決算，他們4月底會送到監察院，監察院會交給審計部來做審核。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，所以還沒有辦核定嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們到7月底才會審定出來。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，可是我告訴審計長，現在行政院、經濟部其實就已經偷跑，為什麼偷跑呢？因為昨天4月1號開始漲電價，他們要先確定行政院可以撥補給台電多少錢，所以之前已經宣布撥補1,000億，但是這個程序事實上不合相關的規定，因為審計部還沒有針對稅收超徵進行核定，可是行政院先把這1,000億撥補給台電，這個部分當然是屬於今年度的，不是在我們今天諮詢的111年度，可是我要請審計部能夠重視這個事情，不能便宜行事，為了希望能夠再縮小台電電價的漲幅，然後確定稅收超徵的撥補，所以事實上是違反相關規定，我在這邊直接先跟審計長做這樣的說明。","另外，我想請問審計長，你們現在核定的是前瞻基礎建設第3期，我看到你們報告裡面也特別提到對於地方財政的一個壓力，如果以我們現在地方財政的1期、2期、3期來看，我們當時就在講，因為前瞻8,800億，事實上，我們的地方政府要負擔一半，所以對地方政府的財政來講，是一個非常大的負擔，果不其然，今天你們的審計報告裡面，第1期我們地方政府自籌經費的比例是89%；到了第2期，只剩下84%；第3期更是後繼無力，只剩下65%。而你們核定的報告裡面有特別提到，第1期到第3期，現在我們地方政府配合前瞻基礎建設所有編列的預算，只占中央核定自籌經費的33.33%，就是三分之一的意思，所以整個前瞻基礎建設執行到現在，當然這本裡面提到很多執行效率不彰的問題，或者有一些在執行的過程中，有沒有是養蚊子的，根本沒有達成你的計畫功能等等。因此，對於地方的財政，我們審計部看到相關報告後，是不是真的有感受到地方財政要補足前瞻基礎建設要求的自籌經費，事實上是已經有後繼無力的狀況？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有把這個意見送請行政院去注意這個情況。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，那他們有任何的改善嗎？這個經費全部編下去啊！地方就要有配合款啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他們是說以後在核定計畫的時候，他們會注意到這件事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得，已經到3期了，現在才讓行政院感受到這些地方財政的辛苦，第一個，地方財政當然會希望最好中央多補一點錢給我，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不希望我自己自籌，這個壓力非常非常的重，而且你補助款就如同我講的，即去年我們討論了很多，我就不在這邊浪費時間，因為你們補助款也有大小眼啊！對不對？臺北市這麼少，然後高雄那麼多；我先不要講，因為我還在查，就是我們將來的治水預算還在大小眼、還在大小眼，對於中央，第一個，你不能不公平、不均；第二個，你不要拖累地方，讓地方的財政負擔過重，所以我覺得未來不管是特別預算也好，或者是公務預算，我覺得我們的審計部都要本於這樣的原則，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外有一個你們特別提到而我也覺得滿重要的，就是國防部，我們對美軍購事實上金額非常非常龐大，也編列了大筆的特別預算去採購，但是我們國防部很大方、臺灣很大方，對於美國的軍購我們都是用現金支付，這個我想審計長應該知道，可是問題來了，你現金支付之後，有一些合約會終止，比如說我用現金支付準備金，問題是合約終止，你就應該還給我，可是在你們審計部的報告裡面，到111年度，這還不含112年或者到現在，已經合約終止的，但是我們停滯在美國的準備金就高達新臺幣118億，照理說美方應該結案之後退還給臺灣，但是它沒有退還回來，未來我們還是要繼續去軍購，那這個問題怎麼解決呢？這118億我覺得要回來有它的難處，可是未來我們還是這樣，未來還是傻傻的去付這個現金，然後合約終止它還是不退給你，這118億以後不知道會不會變200億、300億、400億、500億的下去。對此，你們有要求國防部，要求他們用擔保信用狀取代現金，因為你們其實查得滿清楚，你們去查了美國軍售相關的辦法裡面，它是可以接受用擔保信用狀，對不對？可是我們軍方沒有這樣做，就是傻傻的一直付現金，然後錢也要不回來。我想請問審計長，你們有沒有追蹤這部分？國防部說：好，我們就開始來研究。請問112年度他們有用嗎？今年度他們有用嗎？下一年度……我們幾乎每年都要跟美國買軍備，這些我們如果傻傻的一直付現金，以後還不曉得有多少idle在美國還要不回來！審計長，這部分非常非常細，我希望審計部能夠繼續盯緊軍方，督導國防部，不要再做冤大頭了！如果美國可以接受擔保信用狀取代現金，我們為什麼不做？其實在你們的報告裡……後來我才看到，狀況其實非常嚴重！你們在報告裡面提到，除了那118億之外，還有時間比較久遠的，也就是100年度之前的，都已經結匯給美方。但事實上這裡面美方有一些結餘款要還給我們，你知道高達多少錢沒有還給我們嗎？50億！剛剛講的118億加50億，光是在111年度之前就超過160億應該還給我們而沒有還給我們！我們現在比較關切的是，軍購應該交給我們的武器，結果延宕，對不對？現在大家大部分都在關心這部分。由於大家很少去關心，所以我很高興、也很肯定審計部注意到這個問題。我們應該把錢要回來，卻沒有要回來！我剛剛講了，合約終止就應該把準備金還給我們，結果沒有還給我們的高達118億！還有，即便是已經結清的，當中卻還有一部分該還給我們的錢也沒有還給我們，可是軍方無力討錢！碰到美國就沒有能力討錢！所以第一，你們已經給國防部指引，說請用擔保信用狀，不要再用現金了；第二，滯存美方的結餘款50億，也應該要督促軍方討回來，可不可以？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，50億我們已經要回來了。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前要回來了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！至於信用……"],["王委員鴻薇：100年度以前的，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：都要回來了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對！118億這個，我們也要他趕快和美國談。至於委員剛剛講的擔保信用狀的部分，美方希望是用美國的，我們希望用兆豐的，所以這方面還在談。"],["王委員鴻薇：美方希望是用美國銀行……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：美國準備銀行的，我們希望用我們國內的信用狀，所以兩方還針對這方面做討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個要盯他們，還要儘快，好不好？不要再傻傻用現金了，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：現金都要不回來！","另外有一個議題也請審計部能幫忙去盯。最近食安連環爆，所以大家都在檢討。我們一年編列食安預算大概將近100億，前瞻計畫編列食安的部分大概有400億，甚至超過400億。既然有這麼多的預算，為什麼還會食安連環爆？像興建國家級實驗大樓、邊境查驗快速通關管理系統、增加檢驗能量等，一大堆都要錢，錢也都給了。現在碰到食安，怎麼會去擋食安的錢呢？問題是，最近就發生了，我們要蓋食安大樓，要擴增檢驗量能，最近討論最多的是米酵菌酸，我們看到衛福部在剛開始時急得跟熱鍋上的螞蟻一樣，為什麼？因為他們沒有標準品！因為檢驗必須要有標準品！後來是彰化基督教醫院來救命，說他們有，並提供給衛福部。所以大家就質疑為什麼一個衛福部比不上彰化基督教醫院？後來我們也發現有關於一些所謂的硬體建設，比如說它要蓋什麼國家級實驗大樓、食安大樓，結果出現了執行率偏低的問題，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，它在第1期就編了，但到現在還沒有，進度只達到……不過現在也已經順利了，當時是因為幾次流標，現在的進度已經快20%了。"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在20%？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在才20%？所以審計部……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為前幾次都是發包不出去啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以審計長，你會不會覺得這個要錢時急吼吼，然後等到執行的部分，編這二十多億要去蓋大樓，我就講嘛，食安的預算沒有人敢擋它，結果呢？現在呢？它的執行率又說什麼合約期程跨年度啦要保留，就是保留預算嘛，它跟你們申請保留預算繼續執行。這個部分到目前只有20%，審計長，你會不會覺得這麼重要的一環，在整個前瞻基礎建設裡面，食安難道不是很重要的一環嗎？那你會不會覺得這個預算真的是……是不是執行的程度……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個確實是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有沒有給他們一些建議？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這次執行確實是進度落後了，但是因為執行的事情啊，我們發現進度落後的時候都會預警它這個部分已經落後了。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，你們有提出來，希望他們能夠加緊腳步，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝審計長。"],["主席：謝謝王委員鴻薇的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的備詢。","接下來請登記第14號羅委員美玲詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":116,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","張啓楷","陳培瑜","林思銘","郭國文","許宇甄","范雲","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","羅智強","洪申翰","王鴻薇","羅美玲","張智倫"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-02"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n審計長列席報告「中華民國111年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」、「中\n央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第3期特別決算審核報告（中華民國110年度至111年度）」、「中央政\n府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告（中華民國109年1月15日至112年6月30\n日）」審核經過並備諮詢－詢答完畢－","agenda_id":"1131801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.11096875,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.148468750000001,"end":5.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.15534375,"end":14.8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