{"error":false,"id":["150988"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150988,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150988","日期":"2024-04-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-10T11:50:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-10T11:59:14+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948e1777b393db098cb5533009c4a7c43105f8ba9b0039caa7a6c932d0b88b6ae5ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:50:38 - 11:59:14","會議時間":"2024-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具「再生醫療發展法草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案。\n(二)委員謝衣鳯等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n(三)委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例草案」案。\n【一、二案採綜合詢答，本日會議僅詢答】\n【4月8日及10日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":759,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時50分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，之前蘇丹紅造成的食安風暴，我在上一次質詢時有請教部長，你們對外的新聞稿以及提到委員會的專案報告都說，從2023年即去年12月11號就已經採百分之百逐批查驗，檢驗合格才能夠輸入，食藥署的新聞稿跟這個報告白紙黑字，我都列在這邊，沒有問題；但有問題的事情是，我上次就有請教你，如果是百分之百逐批抽驗的話，我那時請衛福部公告你們進口的時間，因為你們說百分之百逐批查驗的這件事情是不是真的，要被檢驗嘛，等到你們公告進口的時間以後，我看就不對啊，有到今年1月24號、今年1月1號、今年2月17號、今年2月1號，不同的廠商進口，而且這些都是違法的廠商，在逐批查驗的時間點進來後，後來流入市場被查出來還是有蘇丹紅，那我就很困惑啊，這件事情到底是怎麼發生的？這個逐批查驗是假嗎？請部長說明。"],["薛部長瑞元：這一點謝謝委員的垂詢，後來我們就去查到底是怎麼回事，我在這邊還是要先道歉，可能是我們的指令不夠明確，百分之百抽批的這個部分，當時我們的命令下去之後，我們食藥署在海關的同仁，因為他原來都是以查農藥為主，所以他以為百分之一百指的是農藥，蘇丹紅並沒有百分之一百，所以這是我們的錯。"],["黃委員國昌：先等一下，當初逐批查驗，我們要防治的對象就是蘇丹紅啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：原來是農藥，因為農藥不合格的比較多啦，所以他們一直……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我們上次質詢的時候你不就在這邊承認了嗎？去年5月時就陸陸續續發現蘇丹紅嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你們對外的新聞稿從來沒有告訴消費者說原來逐批查驗的是農藥，不是蘇丹紅。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以剛好這中間大概有兩、三個月的空檔就出現剛剛委員提到的這個問題，後來我們查出來的結果是這樣。這個部分應該是我們上層的指令不夠明確，讓我們食藥署的基層同仁在處理的時候，就以為是農藥百分之百，他就沒有把蘇丹紅百分之百逐批查驗，所以會漏掉兩批吧，我記得是兩批。"],["黃委員國昌：所謂的逐批查驗到今天真相大白，我後來一直追這件事情到底是怎麼回事，因為如果真的逐批查驗的話，不應該出現這樣的現象嘛，但是卻出現了這樣的現象，結果我真的發文給衛福部，我很有耐心地在等這到底是怎麼回事。分兩個part，第一個part是剛剛部長承認的，說你們原來逐批查驗的檢驗項目是農藥殘留，到後面還有兩家。保欣的部分，你們說在逐批查驗以後，連續5批逐批查驗符合規定，依照食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法第十條第一項第二款，查驗方式改採加強抽批查驗，這個就不是逐批查驗，這個是誰決定的？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我請我們署長說明。"],["黃委員國昌：是，請。"],["吳署長秀梅：跟委員報告，有關邊境的查驗辦法，像這種逐批的就是100%抽批，如果連續5批合格，其實就會調降，這是我們本來的程序，就是……"],["黃委員國昌：你們給社會大眾、給衛環委員會的專案報告從來沒有這樣寫過啊！從來沒有這樣寫過啊，我有說錯嗎？署長，我有說錯嗎？請教署長。"],["吳署長秀梅：因為我們如果是採取監視查驗的話，那就永遠都不會調降，除非我們說要調降，但如果是100%抽批……"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛的問題是，你們給衛環委員會及發給社會大眾的新聞稿都告訴社會大眾是逐批查驗，結果事實上等我追下去才發現根本就不是這樣嘛！剛剛部長解釋了農藥的部分，那部長也很有風度，我欣賞部長這種態度，做錯就認錯、道歉，我覺得這是一個政務官應該有的基本風範，而不是做錯了還繼續說謊、還繼續硬拗。我現在是就你們從逐批查驗改成加強抽批查驗的這件事情，我請教署長的是，這件事情我如果沒有追下去，你們給社會大眾的新聞稿、給衛環委員會的專案報告從來沒有這樣講喔，署長，我有說錯嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想委員所提的這件事情，的確我們在邊境查驗的常規就是這樣，但是今天這個案子已經不是常規了，我們往後也會就這個部分去做改善。也就是說我們現在已經找出9種高風險的、不應該出現在食品裡面的物質，這9種物質一旦查出來的話，我們就是百分之百查驗，而且是針對這些物質去做檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：部長有擔當喔！出來幫署長擋子彈，而且你的說明是對的。我們來看一下，食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法第十條，你們給我們的報告援引的是第一項第二款，我不曉得衛福部的同仁是不是覺得立委都不會真的去查那個辦法長什麼樣子，第二項怎麼寫的？「原採逐批查驗產品，查驗機關基於衛生安全考量，得不適用前項第二款規定。」不是抽5批沒有事情，接下來就可以用抽的，還是要逐批查驗嘛，部長，我對於法條第二項這樣的解釋、理解，有沒有錯誤？"],["薛部長瑞元：連續5批符合規定的……"],["黃委員國昌：那個是第一項第二款嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：那我現在帶部長看的是第二項，就是剛剛部長所講的，如果已經造成危害、釀成食安風暴。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，如果是屬於那一類的話，我們就不會降級。"],["黃委員國昌：所以本來就應該用第二項嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我這樣說沒有錯吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望部長，發生這麼大的食安風暴時，在給第一線工作同仁的指令怎麼會出現這樣的差錯？這件事情一定要搞清楚，搞清楚的目的倒不是說現在要去追究誰、處罰誰，而是這樣的錯誤絕對不能再犯，這樣可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以，這個部分我也已經有跟同仁交代了，就是如果覺得指令不清楚的時候，一定要回報，要把它釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-11","speakers":["黃秀芳","邱議瑩","羅廷瑋","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃捷","賴士葆","陳瑩","黃國昌","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","蘇巧慧","陳冠廷","楊曜","劉建國","邱鎮軍","林德福","邱志偉"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2024-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員邱議瑩等25人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案、(二)委員謝衣鳯等19人擬具「再生\n醫療法草案」案、(三)委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「再生醫療法草案」案；二、審查(一)委員邱議瑩\n等25人擬具「再生醫療製劑條例草案」案、(二)委員謝衣鳯等18人擬具「再生醫療製劑管理條例\n草案」案、( 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候你不就在這邊承認了嗎去年5月陸陸續續就發現了蘇丹鴻嘛對"},{"start":175.339,"end":203.473,"text":"你們對外前面講的新聞稿從來沒有告訴消費者說原來我們逐批查驗的是農藥不是蘇丹紅所以在剛好這中間大概有兩三個月的空檔就會出現這個剛剛委員提到的這個問題這後來我們查出來的結果是這樣那這應該是我們上層的指令不夠明確讓這個我們食藥署的這個基層的同仁在那邊處理的時候就以為是"},{"start":205.195,"end":227.011,"text":"農藥百分之百那他又沒有把蘇丹火百分之百所以會漏掉兩批吧我記得是兩批你到今天啊真相大白所謂的逐批查驗我後來一直追這件事情到底是怎麼回事因為如果真的逐批查驗的話不應該出現這樣的現象嘛但是卻出現了這樣的現象結果"},{"start":229.554,"end":254.108,"text":"我真的發文給衛福部我很有耐心的在等等說這到底是怎麼回事分兩趴第一趴是剛剛部長承認的說原來你們有逐批查驗檢驗的項目是農藥殘留但後面還有兩家保新的部分你們說在逐批查驗以後連續五批逐批查驗符合規定"},{"start":255.205,"end":268.093,"text":"依照食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法第10條第一項第二款查驗方式改採加強抽皮查驗這個就不是竹皮查驗喔這個是誰決定的這個是誰決定的是請"},{"start":278.396,"end":293.51,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在邊境的查驗辦法像這種逐批的就是100%抽批如果連續5批是合格的其實就會調降這是我們本來的程序就是如此跟你們給社會大眾給衛環委員會的專案報告從來沒有這樣寫過啊從來沒有這樣寫過啊我有說錯嗎署長我有說錯嗎請教署長"},{"start":305.492,"end":326.286,"text":"如果是採取監視查驗的話,那就會永遠都不會調降,除非到我們說要調降。但是我們如果是100%逐批...剛剛的問題啊,是你們給衛環委員會發給社會大眾的新聞稿告訴社會大眾啊,逐批查驗,現實上面等我追下去才發現根本就不是這樣嘛!"},{"start":327.707,"end":354.445,"text":"剛剛部長解釋了農藥的部分那部長也很有風度我欣賞部長這種態度做錯就認錯抱歉我覺得這是一個政務官啊應該有的基本的風範而不是做錯了還繼續說謊還繼續硬拗我現在就有關於你們從逐批查驗改成加強抽批查驗的這件事情我請教署長的是"},{"start":355.553,"end":361.283,"text":"這件事情我如果沒有追下去你們給社會大眾的新聞稿給衛環委員會的專案報告從來沒有這樣講喔署長我有說錯嗎"},{"start":368.392,"end":392.228,"text":"我想委員在提的這件事情的話的確是我們在邊境的時候查驗它的常規就是這個樣子但是今天這個案子已經不是常規了那我們在往後的時候也會做這個部分去做改善也就是說我們現在已經找出九種的這種高風險的不應該出現在食品的這種類的裡面的"},{"start":395.31,"end":423.239,"text":"那這九種物質的話一旦查出來的話那我們就是百分之一百的就說查驗而且是針對這一些的物質去做檢驗部長有擔當喔出來幫署長擋子彈喔而且你的說明是對的我們來看一下這個食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法第10條你們給我的報告援引的是第一項第二款嘛"},{"start":424.434,"end":450.514,"text":"我不曉得衛福部的同仁是不是覺得立委都不會真的去查那個辦法長什麼樣子第二項怎麼寫的原採逐批查驗產品查驗機關基於衛生安全考量可以不適用前項第二款的規定嗎就不是抽五批沒有事情就可以接下來用抽的嘛就還是要逐批查驗嘛部長我對第二項法條這樣的解釋的理解有沒有錯誤呃"},{"start":453.417,"end":474.492,"text":"臨序五批那符合規定的那 那個是第二款嘛第一項第二款嘛但我現在代部長看的是第二項嘛就是剛剛部長所講的嘛你已經造成了危害釀成了食安風暴當然如果是屬於那一類的話那我們就不會降級啦所以本來就應該用第二項嘛對啦"},{"start":476.226,"end":496.796,"text":"部長我這樣說沒有錯吧?應該是這樣子我希望部長齁就是說就發生這麼大食安風暴的時候我們竟然在給第一線的工作同仁的指令怎麼會出現這樣的差錯這件事情一定要搞清楚搞清楚的目的倒不是說現在要去追究誰處罰誰而是這樣的錯誤絕對不能再犯"},{"start":500.037,"end":502.278,"text":"邱議瑩等21人擬具:「再生醫療發展法草案案件事件事件事件事件事"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}