{"error":false,"id":["151005"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151005,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151005","日期":"2024-04-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-22-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-10T12:52:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-10T13:01:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948eea76c4cce21f662e2d211db49933aca9f8ba9b0039caa7a6542a0eef5cefb9855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:52:08 - 13:01:46","會議時間":"2024-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部列席就「『擴大幼兒教保公共化』成效及未來策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月10日及11日二天一次會））","gazette":{"lineno":1370,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時52分）謝謝美麗的主席，我們請政次。"],["主席：有請林次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：彭署長也有來，我們一起討論，因為時間的關係。"],["主席：請彭署長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席還是要跟您討論，我們各個委員都一直在討論，就是準公托的這個事情，那教師怎麼辦？直接切入主題，我們現在說要一比十五，現在是一比十二，所有業者都很聽政府的話，都加入準公托，政府鼓勵，大家都聽話。聽話了之後，你一改再改，一比十二到一比十五，老師要增加多少，次長有算過嗎？一個政策推下去，一比十二跟一比十五，你要有多少老師？現在學校畢業的，還有唸學分專班的，到現在所有的業者請不到老師。請不到老師，連公家的缺，更不要講私立，還有加入準公托的，那怎麼辦？那怎麼辦？馬上面臨8月份，現在要怎麼辦？"],["林次長明裕：是的，謝謝委員關心，這個師生比降下來以後，老師量要增加，所以我們公立……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我再次強調，如果我們的來源是足夠，我們當然滿心歡喜！業者也高興啊！現在業者的痛苦是他找不到老師，那怎麼辦？"],["林次長明裕：是，所以我們是採逐年下修師生比。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼叫逐年下修？你現在是一比十二啊！"],["林次長明裕：沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你跟人家講8月要加入準公托，你要一比十五啊！"],["林次長明裕：不對，跟委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你增加那些人，要從哪裡來？"],["林次長明裕：你說顛倒了，目前是一比十五。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一比十五。你現在要一比十二啊！"],["林次長明裕：我們分3年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家都擔心到昏過去了，你知道嗎？你怎麼分3年？什麼叫分3年？"],["林次長明裕：目前公幼先行，達到一比十二師生比的目前是73%，我們就……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：公家都做不到，本席問你，那私立跟加入你準公托的，怎麼做？"],["林次長明裕：我們有獎勵機制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼樣的獎勵機制？你給錢？你叫人家之前加了一千五，現在5年以上要加多少？現在又加了一千二，那你補人家也沒有給人家多少！"],["林次長明裕：這個都在合作費用裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：，那你到底給人家多少也不知道，就一聲令下。"],["林次長明裕：有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要加多少？"],["林次長明裕：我們那個概算出來了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼算出來的？"],["林次長明裕：就是跟今年1月……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對本席的提問。"],["林次長明裕：1月……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：等一下，針對本席的問題回答，現在不是錢的問題，我是說人的問題。"],["林次長明裕：人的問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼辦？"],["林次長明裕：我們一年幼教系畢業的有四千人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你講這個，就跟醫病比一樣，一年有多少，不要說天方夜譚啦！一年有多少是護理師、護理系畢業，從事的有幾成？一成，對不對？"],["林次長明裕：當然職場的環境也很重要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在也是一樣。你有沒有聽到……"],["林次長明裕：要留得住他。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然哪！要留得住他。怎麼留得住他？業者全力配合，你叫人家準公托，他都配合你，那你現在……"],["林次長明裕：8月份可能會調薪。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一比十五到一比十二，你就用調薪，你叫業者調薪，業者也聽你的話……"],["林次長明裕：調薪是我出的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛才說的一千二，那你要加多少？"],["林次長明裕：不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你給人家補得夠嗎？"],["林次長明裕：調薪，這我們會來算，計算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會算夠嗎？"],["林次長明裕：都算進來了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會算夠嗎？這個都有錄音、錄影。"],["林次長明裕：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你叫人家調多少，你有給多少嗎？"],["林次長明裕：報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：夠嗎？你不要再講其他的。"],["林次長明裕：署長有算過了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不要再講到其他的。本席請教兩個議題，缺人要怎麼辦？你要補錢，你補得夠嗎？補錢，這還不是重點，因為缺人，怎麼辦？假設準公托全部退場，你做得來嗎？你有沒有思考到這個問題？"],["林次長明裕：委員，我跟你說一個數字，準公托加入合作的園所，今年會突破兩千所，那委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是大家都聽你政府的啦！"],["林次長明裕：是啊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以加進去以後，你叫人家加薪，沒問題、錢不是問題；你叫人家要增加人，也沒問題，可是我找不到人，請你幫我找，好不好？請你幫我找，好不好？"],["林次長明裕：我們要努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是你們「要努力」啊！是馬上會呈現！孩子每一天要照顧耶！"],["林次長明裕：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這些業者都快發瘋了。對不對？不要製造這樣子，怎麼辦？"],["林次長明裕：所以我們有3年緩衝期。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當時保育員跟老師的這個部分你們延長，時間到了，5年到期，沒有那麼多保育員，也沒有那麼多教師，你再延長一次，就這樣子。那你現在怎麼辦？馬上8月份要到了，你要怎麼辦？十五變十二，要怎麼辦？因為你面臨到一個問題……"],["林次長明裕：所以我們是分3年。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：幼幼班一班16個……"],["林次長明裕：一比八。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有沒有發覺，已經一比八，現在沒有人要辦，我們所有的業者苦不堪言！孩子的妹妹、弟弟，拜託一定要教啦！這些業者還是要開班，都為政府在解決問題耶！那怎麼辦？"],["林次長明裕：對啦！我們也……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以要怎麼辦？"],["林次長明裕：委員，所以幼教……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：乖乖的人就開班，開班又找不到人，這怎麼辦？這要怎麼辦？這問題很大。"],["林次長明裕：私幼有開設2歲專班，我們是有補助。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長是專家，也是我非常認定的、他很用心。但問題是你要解決啊！要解決，業者的問題沒解決，家長的問題沒有辦法解決啊！我們現在是來源的問題啊！你們還笑得出來！業主來都哭得這樣了，你還笑得出來！"],["林次長明裕：我們請署長跟你報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個這麼嚴肅的議題，不要嬉笑，我告訴你。"],["彭署長富源：委員剛才所提的幾件事情，我全都有記起來，會後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你全都有記起來，拜託你解決，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：對，不是記起來而已，因為你講的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：待會兒何欣純上來還是會講。"],["彭署長富源：我都會記起來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很多藍、綠、白的委員都講。"],["彭署長富源：都有記起來，委員剛才講的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你一個政府的政策是讓人家沒有辦法執行的，而且你還要發號施令──加錢，加錢沒問題！對不對？"],["彭署長富源：所以剛剛委員所提的，跟六大……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你補夠了沒有？你有沒有事先跟人家宣告？2個禮拜前啵一聲通知說你們要加多少。當你指示的時候，你有沒有告訴人家，說你會加人家多少錢？事後再講要過年了，啵一聲過年前就一聲令下了，對不對？事後、過年後才說我補你多少。有沒有補足？沒有補足啦！"],["彭署長富源：委員剛才所提的，不管人力或是薪資的問題，都在我們跟六大團體的討論，所有的議題都詳詳細細地一個一個案談，談完之後我們才敢……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長，你講到重點了。"],["彭署長富源：我們會繼續談。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：六大團體所講的議題全部都在我講的內容內。"],["彭署長富源：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看我有沒有探求民瘼？其實是……"],["彭署長富源：是。我們剛剛有提到，4月底以前，我們儘量提前，有一些細節會完成進一步跟地方政府和六大團體的處理，中間有一些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候要告訴社會大眾？你說4月底要告訴我們什麼？"],["彭署長富源：有一些細節，因為我們在3月……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：4月底以前，大家現在人心惶惶，心想我到底要不要加，還來一個……"],["彭署長富源：會提前。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你如果沒有1比12，我就給你fire掉。喔，現在你比人家還兇，可以這樣嗎？"],["彭署長富源：委員剛才所提的在3月29日已經公布了，有一些細節與地方政府和六大團體在兩週內，我們會詳細地……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩週內再去討論？"],["彭署長富源：對，對，對。因為有些細節，像剛剛范雲委員提到勞動基準法，那一個在履約條件裡面雖然我們已經加了十項，那這一項，剛剛次長已經答應也會研議，像你剛剛所提的都會提。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，六大團體、各縣市政府，現在所有的議題，都是本席所提出來的，這是共同的困難，我們要好好地去研討，你要讓這條船開得動，對不對？你不是只有美化數字耶！你現在提了一個政策，業者根本沒有這麼多的師資，怎麼辦？你去問每一個業者，他們都苦不堪言。不要讓一個教育者受到這樣子的對待……"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們一定要照顧好我們的孩子，協助我們的家長，投資教育，希望永遠在。那你要推行任何一個政策之前，你就要想，你推出一個政策，問題那麼……"],["主席：請教育部國教署事後再給委員報告，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：我用書面回答委員好了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你推出一個政策，問題那麼多，所以我具體建議，以後你要公布什麼樣的政策，你應該要先好好地去思維再公布，而不是公布之後再來調整，這樣不對啦，相反了啦，跟剛剛我講的那個1比15跟1比12一樣，都會亂掉，對不對？所以拜託，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員提醒，好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好好來討論，告訴我們，近期告訴我們方向，好不好？讓業者可以生存，好好地來照顧孩子，來協助家長，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，不好意思，不好意思。","好，我們再來請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":320,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-7","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","范雲","李坤城","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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