{"error":false,"id":["151006"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151006,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151006","日期":"2024-04-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-10T12:56:28+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-10T13:04:44+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/871d5246fb87948e9367f3bbbbabf41341a30a144cce7a10f8ba9b0039caa7a61983f8fde3002dc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:56:28 - 13:04:44","會議時間":"2024-04-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「所得稅法」12案：\n(一)\t審查本院委員羅明才等23人擬具「所得稅法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t審查本院國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員馬文君等16人、委員魯明哲等23人、委員謝龍介等20人、委員賴士葆等17人、委員賴士葆等18人、委員林德福等21人、委員楊瓊瓔等16人、委員賴士葆等28人、委員王正旭等17人分別擬具「所得稅法第十七條條文修正草案」等11案。【本院國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員賴士葆等28人及委員王正旭等17人提案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」4案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員黃捷等17人、委員吳宗憲等18人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院委員黃捷等17人及委員吳宗憲等18人提案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【11日下午2時止，4月10日及11日二天一次會，僅詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":1040,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時56分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請我們莊部長跟賦稅署的宋署長。"],["主席：部長，宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，署長好。有沒有看到這一張照片？你注意到什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：本店免用統一發票。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我看到的是吃比瘦更有福。你猜這是什麼？這是一家餐廳，好，但是你看到重點了，本店免用統一發票。我們今天的主題就是要說小店營業稅的查定課徵落伍耗時，營所稅、綜所稅、開發票一次解決。我們來看一下，請問部長、署長，有沒有在第一線查過小規模營業人的營業稅？部長有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：我沒有去查過。"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長有沒有？"],["宋署長秀玲：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我沒有查過，但是我常常協助店家面對各地國稅局及分局相關的救濟。我們看一下，你知道他怎麼查的嗎？目前小規模營業人占全國的營業人多少，你知道嗎？53萬家，占我們全國登記有案的1/3。你覺得它貢獻的營業稅是多少呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員這邊寫得非常清楚，而且……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不到37億。"],["莊部長翠雲：36.9。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只占我們全部營業稅的0.8%。這麼多的小店家，你用什麼標準讓稅務人員去查？費用還原、分業查定、課稅資料，不管，一般人看不懂。你知道稅務員怎麼看的嗎？一般來講，我告訴你，因為我辦過，疫情期間有營業衝擊損失，為了幫助他們，這些小店家可以申請一次4萬元，但是必須證明什麼？營業有損失。你知道他們怎麼證明營業有損失嗎？怎麼樣？上面的教戰守則說，你是早餐店就把桌椅排一排，讓它空蕩蕩地拍個照片。其實小店也沒桌椅，它要證明顧客很少，就讓桌椅空蕩蕩。營業登記後會去做稅籍登記，對不對？稅籍登記以後，你們的稅務人員會去看到底有沒有達到營業稅的小規模營業人20萬開發票的起徵點，對不對？那你們會根據什麼？看他的面積嘛！這個面積很小，大概一個月做不到20萬，這個面積比較大，你就可以跟他約定，是不是這樣子？簡單講是不是這樣子？署長，是不是這樣？是不是這樣子？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，我們現……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們怎麼認定他的營業額？"],["宋署長秀玲：我們現在有3種查定方式……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不用重複、不用重複。"],["宋署長秀玲：委員您講的就是其中的一種，我們會去看他的坪數。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是實際的營業狀況會有起伏，對不對？所以大概每個月起起伏伏，有淡季、有旺季，請問你們的稅務人員可以常常像照顧蘭花草一樣，不時地去看顧嗎？你可以判斷他兩個月報一次的營業額有沒有起伏，有沒有辦法做到呢？不見得，我直接幫你答啦！","那網購平臺就另外講了，網購平臺你們是根據信用卡、進貨、銷貨，有沒有辦法去查出到底網購是不是屬於小規模營業人，要怎麼認定它的營業稅的營業規模？有困難。我以南區國稅局為例，直接告訴你答案，南區國稅局的轄內有將近11萬家小店家，就是未達20萬的，只有不到700個稅務員，你覺得他們有多少時間去這些小店家查核每一段時間它的營業額有沒有達到20萬以上的規模，應該要開發票？還是它營業額下降，應該給它少課徵營業稅，有沒有辦法？能做得到嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：以10萬家，人力負荷上當然是吃緊，但是也不是每個月都去查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我當然知道，你們連一年去一次恐怕都有困難，為什麼？因為你們每年要對這些小店家，不是只有兩個月一次的營業稅，一年一度的營所稅跟綜所稅還是要認定它要繳多少稅，對不對？所以你們的人員還是要幫它算一下，一年至少一次，你認為這個小店家課徵營業稅耗費的人力成本符合嗎？它的貢獻稅金不到0.8%，它的店家規模占了全國營業人的三分之一，你覺得怎麼樣簡政便民，減少你們的人力支出，怎麼做？"],["莊部長翠雲：確實，我們對於起徵點的部分，目前正在檢討當中……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你一個很簡單的方法，首先你們就一次查定課徵取得三個資料，只要它有做營利事業登記、它申請稅籍，你們去看一下，如果它覺得它的規模應該超過20萬了，施比受更有福，你就要叫它開發票，對不對？開了發票，它的營業稅、營所稅、綜所稅是不是就有發票來認定，是不是這樣子？如果它的營業規模未達20萬，它的營業額，你很難估算，是不是這樣？那麼你就要開始思考，你們要常常去看它未達20萬的營業額要繳多少營業稅，這個需求比較強，還是基於它的營業成長，它生意越做越好，你去看它有沒有到達20萬的規模，鼓勵它開發票，是不是這樣子？後者是不是比前者更符合我們徵稅的效益，是不是，部長？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：開發票是我們一直要推廣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對的，所以我的建議就是，你的查定課徵與其耗費高的人力成本去稽查它兩個月的營業稅、它的營業額規模，不如你就加強稅務輔導，不定時再去看一下，它如果到達20萬的規模，鼓勵它開發票，後面的營所稅、綜所稅就一次解決，你同不同意這樣的作法？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當時我們在實施加值型營業稅的時候，希望就是以開統一發票的方式來做，但是我們考慮到小規模營業人，事實上它會有開發票所需要的一些成本比較高，所以才用查定稅額的方式，所以這個部分是有兩個在這樣處理的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再講一次，你可能還沒有懂我意思，如果你讓它確定它的營業額超過20萬，鼓勵它開發票了，後面的營所稅跟綜所稅，你還要不要花時間去估算它的營業額，要不要？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，開發票的話就非常清楚……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不用了嘛！它的營業稅也很容易認定，但是如果它未達20萬，你每次去看一看，你是要去看它是48萬還是8萬，還是你去看一看，是看有沒有到達20萬？請問哪一種比較符合你們稅務的健全？你與其花時間去認定它未達20萬營業規模的起起伏伏，不如你好好的去認定，它如果有到達20萬就輔導它開發票，後者是不是比較符合我們徵稅跟人民感受的效益？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我結論來了，所以針對小店營業稅的查定課徵已經過時落伍了，我希望財政部對於這些未達20萬營業規模的小店家，你不要再用查定課徵了。該怎麼做，我想我會再跟你們討論，但是針對營所稅、綜所稅開發票一次併同查定，這個是不是比較容易？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您提出這樣的一個要求，涉及到成本效益分析，是不是容許我們可以三個月內提出書面報告？"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為其實一個月後內閣就要改組了，我希望比較有即時性，我當然希望未來財政部由您繼續領導，您就可以用到書面報告，不然也算是做一個成績，讓後繼的人瞭解我們的要求，一個月可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們盡力做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。謝謝主席、謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請黃捷委員。黃捷、黃捷，黃委員不在。","請謝衣鳯委員。謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯，謝委員不在。","請張智倫張委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-7","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","黃捷","吳宗憲","黃珊珊","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","鍾佳濱","張智倫","蔡易餘","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-10"],"gazette_id":"1132701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「所得稅法」12案：(一)審查本院委員羅明才等23人擬具「所得稅法第十五條條文修正\n草案」案、( 二) 審查本院國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員馬文君等 16 人、委員魯明哲等23\n人、委員謝龍介等20人、委員賴士葆等17人、委員賴士葆等18人、委員林德福等21人、委員楊瓊\n瓔等16人、委員賴士葆等28人、委員王正旭等17人分別擬具「所得稅法第十七條條文修正草案」\n等11案；二、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」 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