{"error":false,"id":["151051"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151051,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151051","日期":"2024-04-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-11T11:29:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-11T11:39:40+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b4134f726f68a5cb6e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a60782f81b66ae16015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:29:27 - 11:39:40","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。我們2022年開始從日本專案進口雞蛋，農委會相關的報告在2022年的時候其實有揭露，我在2月20日開始發文向農業部以及中央畜產會調2022年日本進口雞蛋的補助金額、採購數量和金額，還有跟哪些廠商採購，但是我從2月20日發文到今天為止，沒有得到我需要的資訊。在農業部回函給我的公文當中，3月21日說沒有簽訂採購合約；3月25日說部分係以合約執行，所以到底哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：第一個，我先跟委員致歉，因為整個雞蛋的執行是由中央畜產會執行的，我們在第一時間……"],["黃委員國昌：中央畜產會的董事長現在是哪位？"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在的董事長是由我們的杜文珍次長當代理董事長。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們兩位的溝通應該沒那麼困難吧？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我們第一時間去問中央畜產會的時候，它回給我們的說明是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是你們的次長搞錯，是不是？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想應該是在承辦，因為在整個雞蛋調度的過程中，我們本身也做了一些內部行政的查核，在這過程中，因為承辦人……"],["黃委員國昌：所以查了半天以後就搞錯，是這樣嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：後面的才是對的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續看。2022年日本專案進口雞蛋到底進了幾櫃？你們給我的回文是211櫃，但是我看去年畜產會的決算書是192櫃，哪一個數字才是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：這要分兩個部分，在111年的時候，當時還沒有開專案進口，是美國、日本及澳洲的部分，回文給你的部分可能是針對日本的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：你看畜產會的決算書，日本後面寫幾櫃？"],["陳代理部長駿季：它這邊寫192。"],["黃委員國昌：你回文給我的寫幾櫃？"],["陳代理部長駿季：211，111年的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我問你哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：211是包括美國和澳洲的部分，192是日本的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下，111年中央畜產會以自有資金委託貿易商代理自日本專案進口雞蛋計211櫃，寫的是日本，跟你剛剛講的不一樣。"],["陳代理部長駿季：很抱歉！我剛才也說過了，我們第一時間在回的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：所以哪一個是對的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：211是包括日本和澳洲的部分，這才是對的。"],["黃委員國昌：你的公文上面不是這樣寫的啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：192是日本，我們現在確定的版本是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：請部長看右手邊3月1日的農業部回函，白紙黑字沒有那麼難閱讀，中央畜產會以自有資金委託貿易商自日本專案進口雞蛋計211櫃，你今天告訴我這個描述是錯誤的，是嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：根據我們現在最新得到的訊息，這個是錯的。"],["黃委員國昌：這是兩年前的事情了，我跟你們索資整整超過了1個多月，到現在連這麼粗略的資訊都可以搞錯，中央畜產會是螺絲掉光了嗎？如果211櫃是對的，你們去年那個決算書內容不就虛偽不實，我有說錯嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想在數據、在資訊上面，中央畜產會的承辦人在第一時間提供的資料可能是有誤的，所以也導致我們在回函的時候可能有些誤差，這個部分我想是行政的疏失……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才問你嘛！中央畜產會是不是螺絲掉光了嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我也跟委員報告，我們在做整個專案進口雞蛋的查核，的確畜產會在執行面上有一些必須要去改進的空間，我們也針對他們檢討……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！我們進入下一個問題，我一直問，你們2022年從日本進口雞蛋，專案進口廠商有哪幾家，結果你們回復我說這是商業機密，請問這是什麼商業機密？我們用納稅人的錢去買雞蛋，我問跟哪一些貿易商進口，不能夠講，在遮掩什麼？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我們絕對不是遮掩，因為相關的這些進口專案合約並不是農業部訂的，是由畜產會跟貿易商訂的，以他們合約的部分列有相關的保密條款，如果……"],["黃委員國昌：來，它的保密條款是怎麼寫的？2023年我們可以公告進口雞蛋的廠商，這是2023年嘛。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對！"],["黃委員國昌：全部都公告了嘛！哪一家廠商、進了多少蛋、多少錢，這個是國民有權力知道的，這也絕對是國會應該監督的，你們2023年可以公告，結果2022年現在是涉及到什麼，跟哪一個廠商買是涉及到國家機密喔？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員說明，在2023年一開始的時候，我們也沒有同意，我們是一直跟廠商溝通，得到合約雙方同意以後我們才公告的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我問你保密條款，你說2023年也沒有同意，來、來、來，看一下，2023年你們的進口雞蛋合約長這樣，對不對？"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這是你們公布的嘛！"],["陳代理部長駿季：是雙方，他們同意，我們才公告的。"],["黃委員國昌：是！沒有錯、沒有錯，你一直在講有保密條款，按照你們公開的合約，請問保密條款寫在哪裡？請問保密條款寫在哪裡？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我所瞭解、我所掌握的訊息，當初的合約，在2023年不管它有沒有列保密條款，一定要經……"],["黃委員國昌：本身就是機密。"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，就要經過雙方同意才能夠公開。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！如果有這個合約的規範，我就問你寫在哪裡嘛？"],["陳代理部長駿季：因為我問過法制，就算合約裡面沒有寫的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：然後那個契約本身是秘密。"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是，它要雙方同意以後才能夠公開。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在在問你，當契約裡面有保密條款，我是念法律的人，我在契約裡面的保密條款就找了半天，到底寫什麼嘛？來，你把你現在手上的保密條款唸給大家聽，怎麼寫的？"],["陳代理部長駿季：乙方因本件買賣而知悉甲方營業上或標示物上之資訊、情報、計畫、機密或其他相關……"],["黃委員國昌：誰是乙方？"],["陳代理部長駿季：乙方就是廠商，廠商是乙方。"],["黃委員國昌：誰負有保密義務？"],["陳代理部長駿季：甲方。"],["黃委員國昌：甲方？再唸一次！乙方因本件買賣知悉甲方的情報，不可以洩漏，誰負有保密義務？明明是乙方負有保密義務，你站在國會裡面胡扯喔！"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，我沒有胡扯，我跟委員報告，就是我所知道的，因為我不是學法律的，但是從我們法務人員給我的訊息就是，合約不管有沒有寫保密的條款，合約要公開的時候，一定要雙方都同意才能夠公開，所以在2023年……"],["黃委員國昌：誰告訴你的？這個就是我的問題嘛！合約不管有沒有保密條款，公開的時候要兩方都同意？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我可不可以請我們的法務回答？"],["黃委員國昌：主席站起來了，我尊重主席，你要回答也可以，請。"],["吳處長芙蓉：報告委員，我們行政機關要提供資料出去，原則上要適用政府資訊公開法，所以政府資訊公開法第十八條的規定有寫：政府資訊屬於下列各款情形之一者，應限制公開或不予提供之。委員您看一下第十八條，有關於第十八條第七款的部分，就是有關於法人或團體營業上秘密或經營事業有關之資訊，其公開或提供有侵害法人的權利、競爭地位或其他正當利益者，基本上……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題就來啦！政府資訊公開法絕對不是按照你這樣解釋的，公開這個合約是侵害到那個法人什麼營業秘密啊！你站在國會上面鬼扯喔！"],["主席：黃委員、黃委員，請息怒，因為我們今天討論的是動保法、野保法，所以可能相關的資訊準備的不是那麼充足，是不是能夠讓他們再來跟黃委員報告，好不好？因為我們後面還有很多委員要進行詢答……"],["黃委員國昌：可以啊！主席裁示了，我等了一個多月，終於有機會質詢你們，到現在還在胡扯，用政府資訊公開法，前面說有保密條款，被我抓出來以後根本沒有，現在改扯政府資訊公開法。"],["主席：是不是讓他們會後再跟您報告，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好！"],["主席：因為我們後面還有很多委員要進行詢答，時間也不早了，謝謝。","接下來我們請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","我們請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","黃國昌","高金素梅","郭昱晴","蔡易餘","洪申翰","陳冠廷","洪孟楷"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2024-04-11"],"gazette_id":"1132601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條\n文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案、(三)\n本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案；\n二、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬\n具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「野生動物保育法\n部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(七)本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一\n條文修正草案」案、 (八)本院委員張雅琳等 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案。"},{"start":232.335,"end":257.41,"text":"中央訊產會以自有基金委託貿易商自日本專案進口雞蛋計211棍。」所以你今天告訴我 這個描述是錯誤的 是嗎?根據我們現在最新得到的訊息 這個是錯的這是兩年前的事情了我跟你們所知整整超過了一個多月到我現在連這麼粗略的資訊都可以搞錯"},{"start":260.441,"end":270.39,"text":"中訓場會是螺絲掉光了嗎?如果211是對的那你們去年那個決算書內容不就虛偽不實?我有說錯嗎?"},{"start":277.486,"end":278.987,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":298.558,"end":303.919,"text":"條文修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責修正草案案件事務委員會負責"},{"start":318.724,"end":345.358,"text":"結果你們回復我說這是商業機密請問這是什麼商業機密我們用納稅人的錢去買雞蛋我說跟哪一些貿易商計不能夠講在遮掩什麼不過我想我們絕對不是遮掩因為相關的這些進口專案合約因為並不是農業部訂的是由續產委跟貿易商訂的那以他們的合約的部分他們列有相關的保密條款來他保密條款是怎麼寫的"},{"start":348.46,"end":364.315,"text":"2023年我們可以公告進口雞蛋的廠商這是2023年了嘛全部都公告了嘛哪一家廠商進了多少蛋多少錢這個是國民有權利知道的這絕對是國會應該監督的"},{"start":366.457,"end":393.974,"text":"你們2023年可以公告結果2022年現在是涉及到什麼跟哪一個廠商買是涉及到國家機密喔我跟委員說明喔在2023年的時候一開始的時候我們也沒有同意那我們是一直跟廠商溝通得到雙方合約雙方同意以後我們才公告的所以我問你保密條款你說你2023年也沒有同意來來來看一下看一下2023年你們的進口雞蛋合約漲降對不對"},{"start":396.36,"end":411.854,"text":"對阿這個是你們公布的嘛是雙方他們同意我們才公告的是沒有錯好沒有錯是你一直在講嘛說有保密條款嘛是按照你們公開的合約請問保密條款寫在哪裡請問保密條款寫在哪裡"},{"start":414.211,"end":441.59,"text":"我所瞭解我所掌握的訊息當初本身的合約不管他有沒有列保在2023年齁不管他有沒有列保密條款一定要經沒有就要經過雙方同意才能夠公開對嘛你如果有這個合約的規範我就問你寫在哪裡嗎就算因為我問過法治齁就算合約裡面沒有寫的時候然後那個契約本身是秘密不是他要雙方同意以後才能夠公開我現在在問你齁說"},{"start":443.591,"end":472.453,"text":"當契約裡面有保密條款我是唸法律的人啊我契約裡面的保密條款就找了半天到底寫什麼嘛來你把你現在手上的保密條款唸給大家聽怎麼寫的以方因本件買賣而窒息甲方營業上或標示上物的資訊、情報、計畫、機密等其他相關誰是以方以方就是廠商廠商是以方誰負有保密義務"},{"start":475.096,"end":484.841,"text":"假方 再念一次以方應本件買賣知悉假方的情報不可以洩漏誰負有保命義務"},{"start":487.538,"end":503.196,"text":"明明是以防復的保密業務!你站在國會裡面胡扯喔!我沒有胡扯我跟委員報告齁就是我所知道因為我不是學法律但是從法務我們的法務人員給我的訊息就是合約不管有沒有寫保密的一個條款"},{"start":505.06,"end":506.562,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、審查．一、"},{"start":520.185,"end":540.097,"text":"主席站起來了我尊重主席你要回答也可以請報告委員我們行政機關要提供資料出去原則上要適用政府資訊公開法所以政府資訊公開法的第18條的規定有寫說政府資訊屬於下列情形之一者應限制公開或不予提供之"},{"start":541.318,"end":563.956,"text":"條文修正草案案的第十八條的第七款的部分,就是有關於法人或團體營業上的秘密或經營事業有關的資訊,它的公開或提供有侵害法人的權利或競爭地位或是其他的案例。我現在的問題就來了,政府之音公開法絕對不是按照你這樣解釋的。"},{"start":565.637,"end":592.283,"text":"公開這個合約是侵害到那個法人什麼營業秘密啊你站在國會上面鬼扯喔黃委員黃委員請息怒因為我們今天討論的是動保法野保法所以可能相關的資訊準備的不是那麼充足是不是能夠讓他們再來跟黃委員報告好不好那因為我們後面還有很多委員要進行詢問主席查一次了我等了一個多月終於有機會資訊你們"},{"start":593.888,"end":603,"text":"到現在還在胡扯用政府資訊公開法前面說有保命條款被我抓出來以後根本沒有現在改扯政府資訊公開法"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}