{"error":false,"id":["151063"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151063,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151063","日期":"2024-04-11","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-11T12:14:44+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-11T12:22:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40ef09094e90200b4d57eed486c15ae1e63a84d836101fd2f8ba9b0039caa7a6dfe319c4cacb412b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:14:44 - 12:22:16","會議時間":"2024-04-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「遠洋漁業條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「遠洋漁業條例增訂第十四條之一及第三十八條之一條文草案」案。\n          （第二案及第三案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「野生動物保育法第十九條、第二十一條及第二十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員張雅琳等18人擬具「野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案」案。\n　      （第八案如經復議，則不予審查。）\n【4月10日及11日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時14分）請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我想你應該知道地面型的光電近期在中南部其實引起了很多環境生態相關的討論，我們在很多報導裡面看到好像業者、社區、NGO常常處在一種衝突的關係跟局面下，但如果我們仔細去看國外的一些作法會發現，其實國外好像已經有很多成功的案例，透過一些我覺得很具巧思的設計跟配套，光電在自然生態跟農業生產其實有滿多融合雙贏的例子。比方螢幕左邊這個英國的案例，你可以看到他們透過設計讓這個案場多了很多生物多樣性，甚至還出了一本指引；右邊是荷蘭的例子，他們設計了光電的地景公園，反而吸引了很多野鳥來棲息，做到很多社區的共融。看起來這些融合或者是這些雙重、多重效益是做得到，國外的案例很多，如果在臺灣有類似的作法，透過設計讓衝突能夠走向共融，甚至是多贏，部長，你覺得值不值得推廣？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我個人認為光電結合農業就是以農為本、光電加值的這個概念，最重要的一點就是在臺灣，當然沒有錯，很多地景都很好，不過我以實務上來看……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我先問你如果能夠做得到的話，我先做這個前提……"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果說真正做到像歐洲那樣子的話，我覺得可以，絕對可以往前去思考。"],["洪委員申翰：你同不同意能夠進一步往前推廣？如果做得到的話，當然前提是要做得到。"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得可以往前去做一個規劃，因為目前的問題不在地的問題，是在本身包括我們的光電區、漁電共生只用到8%而已。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我現在問你同不同意，如果做得到可不可以往前推動？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果做得到像您提供的照片這樣的話，我覺得可以值得進一步的去規劃，那是共融的部分。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你們農業部其實之前有要求一些光電的案場用信託的方式來處理生態補償的問題，最近有一個案例即將要上路，我看到是在臺南的將軍，這個光電業者是委託人，他提撥了一筆所謂生態補償金，銀行是作為受託人，銀行再把這筆錢給生態跟環境專業的NGO來作為受益人，讓他們可以用這筆錢去維護另一塊鹽灘濕地的生態，它的面積甚至達到1,200公頃，非常大片，所以其實它有機會可以讓包括水鳥、包括濕地環境可以棲息，做到我覺得效果很好的異地補償，部長，你覺得這個作法是不是跟過去的看起來不太一樣，有機會大家可以做一點研究，甚至往前鼓勵？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得您所提到的這個案例我們必須再去詳細的瞭解，因為從照片看起來是很漂亮，但是在實務上到底是怎麼樣的一個三角關係，以及他們之間的互動……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，那些相關案例你有鼓勵大家可以用信託的方式來處理啊！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想信託是方法之一，但是我要回到本質，就是當這個光電進到這個場域的時候是不是能夠維持那邊的生態，那個才是重點，而不是用信託。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要先跟你說，我今天跟你討論這件事最重要的是，其實有很多民間團體，包括環保團體，在做各項的嘗試，他們現在希望能夠用公益信託的方式，我們的公益信託其實是要跟主管機關來做申請，但目前生態保育的主管機關沒有訂定公益信託的子法，所以現在反而是思考怎麼樣能夠讓事情雙贏的NGO組織必須要用所謂的他益信託的方式，這個他益信託反而需要繳交最高20%的稅額。部長，你覺得在你心中公益信託的理念，假如真的有公共利益的話，我們是不是該推動、是不是該支持？"],["陳代理部長駿季：如果真的是用公益的概念去做的話，我覺得公益信託子法是值得去做相關的研議，而不是回到一般用閃避的方式或用其他的信託方式去處理。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，可是現在問題來了啊，我們現在就沒有公益信託的子法，現在環境部有，可是它只針對環境教育，不是針對生態保育。"],["陳代理部長駿季：OK，這個部分我可以回去以後請我們的農金署來做這個公益子法的相關研議。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，這個可能要你們農金署跟生態保育的主管機關，因為是要跟主管機關來做相關的申請……"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們先去……"],["洪委員申翰：我同意它應該要符合所謂的公益，但是我們連子法都沒有，我們連要去判斷它符不符合公益都沒有辦法！"],["陳代理部長駿季：瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我認為今天不管有沒有這個案例，從環境保育的角度，現在有越來越多的團體都希望保育能夠用公益信託的方式來做到更多的雙贏，也越來越多人也許願意出資、出錢來請專業的人幫忙保育，但現在都卡在農業部沒有子法，大家無從操作、無從往前走、無從執行，大家都必須要用他益信託的方式，但是要繳20%的稅額，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我覺得不合理，但是剛才您講到一個非常重要的，這個保育的東西跟你剛才的光電可能是兩件事，不一定是結合在一起，因為有很多很多種生態的保育是由保育團體來做的。"],["洪委員申翰：我認為剛剛我講的案例有機會成為公益信託裡面好的案例，但這件事情……"],["陳代理部長駿季：不是唯一的，不是唯一！"],["洪委員申翰：對，可是大家可以以專業來做判斷。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：可是當你們子法都沒有的時候，連判斷的依據、連判斷的操作與執行都沒有！"],["陳代理部長駿季：我知道。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，二個月內把我們公益信託的子法給訂定出來，參考其他部會，至少把子法訂定出來，有沒有問題？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想我可以承諾的就是把子法的草案，我們先跟公益團體討論也要有一個基本的草案，因為訂定出來本身要有非常多的程序，我們把整個規劃的草案先……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，二個月，請你們找相關團體，包括業者等等等一起來討論……"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：包括銀行，大家期望一個什麼樣公益信託的操作方法，我們把它定出來，好不好？二個月。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，二個月可以。"],["洪委員申翰：草案提出來，然後找相關的團隊一起來討論。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對，我們再來去討論細節。"],["洪委員申翰：我覺得這是一個重要的基礎！"],["陳代理部長駿季：可以，這個我認同。"],["洪委員申翰：好，那麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["陳代理部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員的發言。接下來請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":456,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-7","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱鎮軍","楊瓊瓔","黃捷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","張雅琳","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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案。"},{"start":29.69,"end":49.048,"text":"條文修正草案．第十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八"},{"start":50.029,"end":71.074,"text":"但其實我們仔細去看國外的一些做法會發現其實國外好像已經有很多成功的案例透過一些我覺得很具巧思的設計跟配套讓光電在自然生態跟農業生產其實蠻多融合雙贏的例子比方說你看一下在左邊這個英國的案例裡面你可以看到"},{"start":72.108,"end":87.151,"text":"三條之一及第四條之一及第四條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條之一及第八條"},{"start":102.665,"end":107.676,"text":"通過設計讓衝突能夠走向共榮甚至是多贏。」"},{"start":109.226,"end":136.768,"text":"部長你覺得值不值得推廣我個人認為光電結合農業就是以農為本光電加持這個概念那最重要的一點就是在臺灣現在當然沒有錯很多地景會都很好那不過我以實務上來看我先問你說如果能夠做得到我先說如果能夠真正的做到像歐洲那樣子的話我覺得是絕對可以往前去思考你覺得同不同意"},{"start":137.589,"end":152.044,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十六條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案案件及第十八條條條文修正草案"},{"start":152.756,"end":153.676,"text":"二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":175.7,"end":187.935,"text":"那這個光電業者是委託人提撥了一筆所謂生態補償金那銀行是作為受託人那銀行在把這筆錢給生態跟環境專業的NGO"},{"start":191.038,"end":209.161,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第四十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條條文修正草案．一、三十六條條"},{"start":219.855,"end":235.713,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":236.314,"end":247.543,"text":"不過我想信託是一個方法之一但是我要回到本質就是說當我這個光電進到這個場域的時候是不是能夠維持那邊的聲音那才是重點而不是用信託"},{"start":251.112,"end":272.119,"text":"其實有很多民間的團體包括環保團體在做各項的嘗試但是他們現在他們希望能夠用公益信託的方式我們公益信託其實是要跟主管機關來做申請但我們其實目前生態保育的主管機關我們沒有訂公益信託的執法所以呢"},{"start":273.311,"end":274.312,"text":"三（三（三（三（三（三（三（三（"},{"start":295.182,"end":316.164,"text":"條文修正草案．一、審查．一、三十四條之一及第十六條之一及第十六條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及第十八條之一及"},{"start":318.246,"end":344.935,"text":"他不是針對生態保育的部分。好那這個部分我可不可以回去以後請我們的農經署來做這個公益執法的這些相關的研議。這個可能要你們農經署跟生態保育的主管機關。對。因為你是要跟主管機關來做相關的申請。對我們先去。因為現在我同意他應該要符合所謂的公益。是。但是我們連執法都沒有。我們連要去判斷他符合公益都沒有辦法。了解。"},{"start":345.956,"end":353.742,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二�"},{"start":368.613,"end":370.135,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":378.208,"end":401.107,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件中的20%的稅額,你覺得這合理嗎?我覺得不合理,但是剛才您講到一個非常重要的,這個保育的東西不是跟你的剛才的觀念是兩件事,不一定是結合在一起,因為它有很多很多種生態的保育是由保育團體來做的。我認為剛剛我講的案例有機會成為公益系統裡面好的案例,但這件事情當然不是唯一的,可是大家可以專業來做判斷。"},{"start":402.628,"end":403.769,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":429.71,"end":430.811,"text":"條文修正草案案案件及其他條文修正草案案件"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}