{"error":false,"id":["151112"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151112,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151112","日期":"2024-04-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-15T10:38:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-15T10:52:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0eb33197c9047471f0dfefb6b28ae2d84df8ba9b0039caa7a634bed05c71fdd9325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:38:53 - 10:52:24","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、內政部、法務部、教育部、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、文化部就「數位技術普及造成兒少性剝削案件增加之因應作為與現行政策檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時39分）我們有請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我想請問一下，最近我們包括健保改革、醫護離職潮、食品安全與社會安全網的問題層出不窮，當然有人認為我們衛福部因為520要到了，留下一大堆的爛攤子，我在這邊想請問一下部長，您認為這些問題，您有沒有責任要留下來？"],["薛部長瑞元：留下來不是用責任去講，不過目前……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你總不能拍拍屁股就走吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：人家如果不要我做的話，我又能怎樣？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣請問部長，你認為我剛剛講的這些重大問題，應該要立即處理呢，還是要等到新任部長再來處理？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然現在都在處理當中，其中有幾件其實差不多也處理到一個段落了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席一直認為，現在新舊任政府交接的空窗期長達半年，讓看守內閣長期不能有效地作為，這是一個憲政運作非常嚴重的問題，請部長應該要勇於負責。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：積極處理相關的問題，不能讓重大政策的施政有長達半年的空窗。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過之前有委員說，看守期間不應該作重大政策的決定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！所以就是空轉囉？對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：那也是委員講的，不是我講的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，但我們國家半年空轉，對國家來講是非常嚴重的事情啊！我希望部長能夠向上反映，把這樣的問題凸顯出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們目前並沒有空轉，我們目前都是照常在運作。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你還是不能決策重大事情啊！不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：該決策的都有決策。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我問一下，我之前提到的那個蘇丹紅，說要一個月給我報告，現在部裡處理得怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：有關蘇丹紅的案子，辣椒粉的部分大概已經做出來告一個段落了，但是最近有一個胡椒粉，它的進口是在我們全面100%抽批之前進來的，所以我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們3月26號到4月9號又在邊境分別攔截、銷毀1萬公斤及5,000公斤的蘇丹紅，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，還是有這種心存僥倖之徒，還是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們沒有100%驗嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，就是100%驗了，所以才能把它擋下來，而且擋下來後又全部把它銷毀，把它銷毀的話就是讓它付出成本，以後這種心存僥倖的就會減少了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這一次我看到的不是，這是臺中市接獲的通報，是下游驗送公司主動通報的，而不是我們檢驗公司查到的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以委員，這是兩件事情，一個是在海關的部分，我們擋下來有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那為什麼還會到廠商那邊，你如果100%擋，為什麼還會在廠商那邊出現？"],["薛部長瑞元：那個是不一樣的案子。在臺中驗出來的那一個是在112年、111年分別進來的，那個時候我們還沒有100%擋，所以那時候進來的，現在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在請問一下，這一次從中國大陸進口的這些廠商有22家是違法的，我們有沒有透過管道，向中國政府來尋求協助？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們有通知，至於協助，我想靠自己是比較重要的，因為他們也不會同意我們到中國那邊去做查廠。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣子好不好？部長，這件事我們當然不希望再發生，我希望我們一定要對所有進口的辣椒粉100%查驗。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：針對業者的主動檢驗應儘速研議將檢驗公司納入通報機制，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再問部長，針對藝人黃子佼這件案子，持有未成年私密影像的事件，衛福部至4月10日才首度引用行政執法進行強制封網的處分，查封創意私房的網站。我想請問一下部長，何時才掌握檢察官起訴創意私房網的會員及加害人的訊息？"],["薛部長瑞元：檢察官那邊因為偵查不公開，我們還沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：事實上，檢察官早於111年1月13號就確定起訴創意私房涉嫌偷拍了，到現在我們4月10日才發文封網。剛剛有提到818天的時間，我們未依照兒少性剝削防制條例第八條規定移除犯罪資料，我們衛福部這邊，您怎麼看？"],["薛部長瑞元：檢察官在110年查獲的時候，我記得那時候就曾經封網過，只不過它是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那為什麼4月10號才發文。"],["薛部長瑞元：它又改變網域，等於是又復活。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以封網跟之前有一種……"],["薛部長瑞元：下架。"],["邱委員鎮軍：跟下架是不一樣的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不一樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這一次是封網還是……"],["薛部長瑞元：下架是對單獨、個別的影片，把它從網路上面拉下來，不讓人家看得到；封網則是針對網站，這個網站因為有這種兒少性剝削……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這次黃子佼的事件有沒有啟動相關的下架移除機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是用封網，因為它是在境外。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個案子總共下架多少次？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是就個別影片下架的部分，我們接受通報且有網址的，大概有665件下架，但封網的只有9件。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我認為衛福部性影像處理中心，就是專責處理單位，這樣沒錯吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不應該讓外界感覺不到它的存在，除了應該加強橫向聯繫相關機關之外，應即時要求國內的業者下架相關資訊並提升功能，負責聯繫國外平臺網站下架非法的影像內容，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個很難，在國外要它下架、拜託它下架……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果都沒辦法做，我們要這個單位幹嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，就看法律能不能直接授權我們去搜尋，如果看到有問題的，我們就把它……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你贊成修法嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，境外的就把它封掉了，讓國人看不到，這個沒有問題，技術上做得到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：去年政府認為不需要制定新的專法而採取修法，導致防治數位性別暴力犯罪規定過於分散，太過於分散！"],["薛部長瑞元：也不能這樣說，因為每一個法都有一些主要的目標跟作法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席認為現在行政院與衛福部應該主動積極研議相關法律條文的修法，並重新思考制定專法的必要性，不要外界踢一下才動一下，這樣行政防治作業永遠都會落在後面，發生了才知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：其實是不是立專法，我個人覺得並不是要點，重點是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛不是說沒有法源依據？"],["薛部長瑞元：有一個條文讓我們可以主動去搜尋就好了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，那就是一樣，不是修法，是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，就在兒少性剝削條例……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那不是修法，是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，剛剛委員講是專法，專法就是要立一部法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你可以修法嗎，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以，我們可以來研議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問一下數發部，2021年時任電偵大隊隊長、現為刑事局研發科代理科長的莊明雄，當時嘗試使用封禁賭博和詐欺網站的作法叫「域名扣押」，跟現在你們的封網有沒有什麼不一樣？"],["曾副司長文方：就技術層面來講或實質面來講，其實是一樣的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：2021年創意私房的域名扣押只維持1個月，他們把原來網域的「.net」改成「.com」就重新復活了，專業的數發部有把握可以封多久？如果網站又復活，後續怎麼處理？"],["曾副司長文方：封網的時間應該是依據當初的判決來處理，所以要封多久可以根據法官的判決或者是行政部門的行政處分來決定。剛剛我有稍微報告到，因為重新註冊國外的域名，再重新架設網站的成本其實很低，所以這部分數發部一直跟TWNIC在研究。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得我們不但要把這個網域封網，另外發生的，比如這次提到創意私房的4個錢包交易金額大概有3,000萬左右，臺灣的受害者不少，數發部有沒有打算協調金管會繼續追下去？不是查完就算了，對不對？否則犯罪人怎麼會怕呢？"],["曾副司長文方：虛擬貨幣跟金流的部分可能還是要尊重……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我剛剛講的橫向交流很重要，好不好？橫向的一些溝通很重要，我希望數發部跟金管會能夠協調，可以嗎？"],["曾副司長文方：好，謝謝委員指導。這部分我們會跟相關部會來協力，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問一下法務部跟警政署，依托咪酯電子煙是毒品，還是藥品？"],["簡副司長美慧：這個部分應該是衛福部主管的，菸害防制法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以還沒有規定就對了？"],["薛部長瑞元：電子煙通通都叫做類菸品，都不是藥，都是違禁品。"],["邱委員鎮軍：吸食了之後會變成喪屍、會成癮，性情大變，思考變混亂，大陸去年就已經把這個東西列為毒品，臺灣現在是抓到沒事嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員可能要把那個名稱給我來確認一下，因為電子煙有很多內容，但電子煙都是違禁品。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這個東西就像K他命一樣，K他命一直被列為三級毒品，對於青少年的侵害非常大，我知道國中就已經非常氾濫。為什麼法務部到現在還是列為三級毒品？"],["簡副司長美慧：因為毒品危害防制條例是分級管制的，要把它列進去第一級、第二級或是第三級、第四級的時候，要考慮它的成癮性，還有濫用性及對社會的危害性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您剛才的意思是，其實K他命對社會沒有影響？"],["簡副司長美慧：不是。因為怎麼樣列分級要在毒品審議委員會裡面討論，毒品審議委員會裡面有法務部，還有衛福部跟相關的專家，大家要共同討論……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得法務部有必要再檢討K他命分級的調整，要不然的話，我發現現在在國中就已經非常氾濫，為什麼警察不抓？因為抓了只能罰款，警察單位沒有分數、沒有績效，所以造成執法等於是變鬆散了，有一種變相不處理，然後鼓勵人家犯罪的嫌疑。"],["簡副司長美慧：關於K他命要不要改列成第二級毒品，事實上，過去毒審會有幾次討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們是怕看守所關不下，是嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：不是。有幾次討論，我們尊重整個毒審會專業意見的決定，目前為止，大家還是把它維持在第三級毒品。但是施用第三級毒品跟持有第三級毒品……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我發現吸食K他命真的對身體影響非常大，尤其造成青少年膀胱的問題。我希望部裡能夠針對這個部分來檢討，好嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：是，我們再帶回去研議。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢。","接下來請蘇清泉委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","洪申翰","黃珊珊","黃捷","洪孟楷","張雅琳","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","麥玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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通報機制可以嗎?"},{"start":266.142,"end":279.046,"text":"那我再問部長就是針對藝人黃子嬌這件案子持有未成年私密影像的事件衛福部至4月10日才首度引用行政執法"},{"start":280.925,"end":300.094,"text":"進行強制封網的處分那查封創意私房的網站那我想請問一下部長何時才掌握檢察官起訴的這個私房創意私房網的會員及加害人的訊息檢察官那邊的話我們還沒有因為他的偵查不公開我們還沒有"},{"start":301.412,"end":325.16,"text":"事實上我們檢察官早於111年1月13日就確定起訴的創意私房涉嫌偷拍那到現在我們4月10日才發文封網剛剛有提到818天的時間我們為依照兒少性剝削防治法條例第8條規定移除犯罪資料那我們衛福部這邊您怎麼看"},{"start":327.142,"end":346.943,"text":"這個檢察官在當時110年查獲的時候我記得那時候就曾經封網過只不過他是那為什麼4月10號才發文他又改變網域等於說又復活所以封網封網跟有一種叫之前下架跟下架是不一樣嗎不一樣"},{"start":348.206,"end":349.047,"text":"那我們總共下架多少這個案子?"},{"start":378.212,"end":394.457,"text":"如果是下架就個別的影片下架的部分的話我們接受這個通報然後就有所謂的網址的我們大概有665件是下架但是封網的是只有9件"},{"start":395.582,"end":412.354,"text":"我認為我們衛福部信引向處理中心就是專責處理單位這樣沒錯吧所以不應該讓外界感到感覺不到它的存在除了因應應該加強橫向的聯繫相關機關之外即使要求國內的業者下架相關資訊"},{"start":414.416,"end":427.728,"text":"並應提升功能,負責聯繫國外平台網站下架非法的影像內容,可以嗎?這個很難啦,這要...要國外要他...不,那我們要這個單位幹嘛?如果你都沒辦法做"},{"start":428.41,"end":455.251,"text":"沒有,我們就直接看看能不能法律搜尋我們,我們就去搜尋所以你是贊成修法了?對,就把它封掉了啦,境外的對不對,讓國人看不到這個沒有問題啊,技術上做得到那我們在去年修法,我們政府認為說不需要制定新的專法嘛對不對,而採取用修法導致防制數位性暴力這個犯罪歸過於分散,太過於分散"},{"start":456.195,"end":479.253,"text":"也不能說這樣子因為它每一個法有它的主要的一些目標跟做法本席認為我們現在在行政院與衛福部應該主動積極研議相關的法律條文的修法並重新思考制定專法的必要性不要外界踢一下才動一下這樣子對我們的行政防制作業永遠都會落在後面發生了才知道"},{"start":479.997,"end":506.907,"text":"其實是不是立專法這個我個人是覺得並不是要點你剛剛不是說沒有法沒有法源依據有一個條文讓我們讓我們可以去主動去搜尋就好了對啊那就是一樣那不是修法是什麼沒有啊就在兒少性剝削條例那不是修法是什麼不是剛剛委員講是專法啦專法就是要立一部法好吧那你可以修法嗎可以嗎這可以啊這我們可以來研議啊好"},{"start":508.308,"end":527.805,"text":"那我請問一下我們速發部我們2021年時任電政大隊隊長現為刑事局研發科代理科長的莊明雄當時嘗試使用封禁賭博和炸雞網這樣的做法叫育民扣押跟現在你們的封網有沒有什麼不一樣的其實就技術跟委員報告就技術層面來講或實質面來講其實是一樣的"},{"start":535.683,"end":554.894,"text":"所以這一次在2021年我們這個創意私房的域名扣押只維持一個月他們把原來的網域的Net改成.com就重新復活了專業的速發部有把握可以封多久如果網站又復活後續怎麼處理我們速發部這邊"},{"start":556.398,"end":570.789,"text":"跟委員報告這個封網時間應該是依據當初檢察官的這個這個判決的部分來處理喔那所以要封多久這個其實是可以根據不管是法官的這個判決或者是行政部門的這個"},{"start":572.05,"end":591.888,"text":"行政處分來裁定來說明對那針對這個就是因為剛我有稍微報告到就是說因為國外的這個域名其實他重新註冊然後再重新開架架設網站的這個成本其實很低那所以在這部分的話其實速發部的話就是"},{"start":592.348,"end":615.286,"text":"一直跟這個ティラミック這邊在研究我覺得我們不但要封存這個就是把這個這個網域應該要把它封網之外那另外發生的比如說像這次提到的這個創意私房的四個錢包交易金額大概有3000萬左右那臺灣的受害者不少我們訴發部有沒有協調金管會打算繼續追下去不是查完就算了"},{"start":621.049,"end":649.278,"text":"這樣子我的犯罪人怎麼會怕呢這個虛擬貨幣跟金流的部分這個部分可能我覺得你們我剛剛講的橫向交流很重要啦好不好橫向的一些溝通很重要我希望我們書發部跟金管會這邊能夠做一個協調可以嗎好謝謝委員指導那這部分我們會跟相關部會來協力謝謝好那我再給我一點時間再問一下我們法務部跟警政署請問一下"},{"start":653.67,"end":656.816,"text":"依託彌子電子煙是毒品還是藥品?"},{"start":660.945,"end":686.823,"text":"這個部分應該是衛福部主管的所以還沒有定就對了因為電子菸通通都是叫做類菸品那個都不是藥所以我跟你講現在70了之後會變成喪屍會成癮性情大變思考變混亂大陸去年就已經把這個東西列為毒品我們台灣現在是抓到沒事嗎?"},{"start":688.791,"end":715.608,"text":"可能委員要把那個名稱給我來確認一下我希望啦,這個東西啊因為這個東西就像我們的K他命一樣K他命一直列為三級毒品對於整個青少年的這個侵害是非常大的我知道的就已經到國中就已經非常氾濫了我想法務部這邊有沒有什麼為什麼到現在還是列入為三級毒品"},{"start":716.121,"end":716.281,"text":"所以請"},{"start":731.488,"end":743.239,"text":"您 大家的意思就是說其實KTM對社會沒有影響的不是 報告委員那因為要把那個怎麼樣去列分級這個部分要在獨品審議委員會裡面討論那獨品審議委員會裡面有法務部還有就是衛福部跟相關的專家我覺得法務部有必要再檢討這個像我們KTM的分級的一個這個調整要不然的話我發現現在我們社會上"},{"start":758.846,"end":776.85,"text":"國中就已經非常的氾濫那為什麼警察不抓因為是因為他抓了只能罰款警察單位也沒有分數沒有績效所以造成這個執法都等於是變鬆散了有一種變相這個不處理然後鼓勵人家犯罪的那種嫌疑啊"},{"start":777.861,"end":778.501,"text":"我希望我們部裡面能夠來針對這個部分來檢討好嗎?"},{"start":806.602,"end":811.175,"text":"是,我們再回去演繹。好,謝謝。謝謝邱正軍委員的質詢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}