{"error":false,"id":["151183"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151183,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151183","日期":"2024-04-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-11","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":11,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-15T10:54:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-15T11:09:07+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f8a1755e5400c0e24b0800a83a1a49abd5be8c4a3d24463f8ba9b0039caa7a6b5795aa85c5ef6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:54:26 - 11:09:07","會議時間":"2024-04-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、行政院主計總處副主計長、原住民族委員會、行政院公共工程委員會、交通部、交通部觀光署、環境部、勞動部、農業部、教育部、衛生福利部、經濟部、財政部、國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會、金融監督管理委員會就「0403震災之災後救助、重建規劃及補助方式」及「從東華實驗室失火事件檢討災害防救之完備化」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":978,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時54分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。要不要先喝口水？"],["林部長右昌：沒關係。"],["主席：好，沒關係。"],["王委員美惠：部長先喝一下啦！"],["林部長右昌：沒關係。委員好！"],["王委員美惠：沒關係。部長，我前幾天聽到你說的話，我覺得臺灣人就是這樣，哪裡需要你你就去哪裡，不管是去哪裡，都是為臺灣人、中華民國服務的，我給你比個讚！"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：剛剛我們有很多同事都說到紅單跟黃單的關係，部長也說得很清楚，紅單就是不能住，狀況比較嚴重的就要馬上拆，黃單是可以改善，如果改善好就沒問題了！不過，部長，本席要向你請教，紅單、黃單的問題在各縣市是什麼人要做的？來，你回答一下。"],["林部長右昌：這部分當然是地方政府要去執行。"],["王委員美惠：是地方政府要做的。來，本席再請教一下，地方政府要做的，中央有需要協助他們嗎？"],["林部長右昌：只要地方政府有需要，中央都會來協助。"],["王委員美惠：如果地方政府不要，也不跟你們聯絡的時候，你們要怎麼出手？部長。"],["林部長右昌：不會啦！我想天災發生的時候，縣市政府都會非常的積極啦！"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦，部長，我現在是在跟你說超前部署，當然花蓮發生這樣的事情，任何一個縣市，你看事情發生的時候，高雄救災的人員趕快就到達現場，我們救災是不分你跟我，也不分什麼黨派。我現在是跟你說，我們要怎麼去預防？如果發生事情的時候，有時候地方政府如果沒有跟你們說，你們要怎麼處理？"],["林部長右昌：委員，你的意思是它沒跟我們說……"],["王委員美惠：他們沒做，你們是不是可以在這裡宣導？比如說我住在一間大樓，沒有主任委員，可是這個大樓已經有被貼黃單了，尤其最近地震頻繁，我也會擔心，部長，你知道嗎？大家都會煩惱。"],["林部長右昌：是，不過中央跟地方各有各的權責，地方政府要負起責任……"],["王委員美惠：我知道有權責，我現在是跟你說，地方政府沒做，百姓也不知道的時候，你們中央要怎麼出手？"],["林部長右昌：我請吳署長來說明一下。"],["王委員美惠：好，署長來。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，地方對於這些黃單的狀況有向我們通報。"],["王委員美惠：有通報。"],["吳署長欣修：我們有通知我們的危老輔導團，所以向委員報告，我們的危老輔導團也會協助地方政府先去篩檢，篩完……"],["王委員美惠：署長，如果沒向你們通報的呢？有的縣市沒有向你們通報的呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告……"],["王委員美惠：是他們那個地方完全沒有黃單也沒有紅單？還是他們沒有通報？"],["吳署長欣修：民眾如果有告知地方政府，其實同步我們就會通知所有技師，這個技師不是地方政府派的，是我們通知各地技師會先去看，確定之後如果有貼黃單或是紅單，相關資料就會交到我們這裡。"],["王委員美惠：你們的技師到目前為止，全臺灣如果要驗，你們的人員夠嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：技師是夠啦！"],["王委員美惠：有夠？"],["吳署長欣修：我跟委員報告，我們這次已經動用一千一百多位技師，但是目前有去現地評估的有四百多個。"],["王委員美惠：有四百多個？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：有跟你們合作的、可以去看的人力還夠？"],["吳署長欣修：是。所以目前單獨在花蓮執行的這69位技師，到現在還是每天在看。"],["王委員美惠：他們辛苦了。"],["吳署長欣修：目前還有69位技師每天在看。"],["王委員美惠：署長，我說給你聽，本席為什麼會跟你探討這個問題，就是你看花蓮這個情形，各縣市也都還有餘震，我覺得大家也會煩惱，所以我們要怎麼去協助他們是最重要的。"],["吳署長欣修：是，所以很感謝的就是，如果民眾有通報，我們這邊也會同步，地方政府也會直接告知，我們就會通知技師去看，有的地方政府如果比較有經驗，他們自己也會通知技師去看，這樣我們就會建立相關資料。"],["王委員美惠：署長，每個縣市不一樣，有的古都是三、四百年的城市了，以我來說，我是在嘉義市，嘉義市到目前為止50年的大樓還有九千多棟，在這個過程當中，嘉義市有很多，何況最近13號早上的地震……"],["吳署長欣修：連二天啦！連續兩、三天都這樣。"],["王委員美惠：因為氣象署說未來可能會有三級、四級地震，對嘉義民眾來說，真的會很害怕！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：本席要說的是，不能讓百姓驚惶，要安百姓的心，剛才提到的黃單、紅單，我也告訴你，地方政府是有在做，不過最主要的是有的大樓並沒有主委，大家也沒辦法進行……"],["吳署長欣修：是，瞭解。"],["王委員美惠：署長，這要如何是好？這才是最重要的啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是啊！所以過去在高雄城中城事件之後，我們已經有修法，也感謝委員會予以通過，如果過去沒有成立或是剛要成立的，我們都會要求他們在輔導期內一定要成立委員會。第二就是只要被貼上單子，我們的輔導團就會通知地方政府要民眾出來。我們要先去瞭解，以此來協助他們，就是儘量協助他們來做這件事情。"],["王委員美惠：署長，儘量去協助，不過不是光貼一個紅單、貼一個黃單就算了……"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解，我們一定要召集他們出來討論。"],["王委員美惠：各縣市目前的黃單多少、紅單多少？而過了半年、三個月，是不是有減少，我們要怎麼來協助他們？這才是最重要的。"],["吳署長欣修：有啦！這個過程都會……"],["王委員美惠：我覺得過程中是有在做，不過就是沒有看到數目出來……"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["王委員美惠：所以要追蹤啦！過程中有在做，但要積極啦！"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，現在都持續在評估中，很多都還在評估。"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！就像我剛剛跟你說的，像嘉義市的部分，你看人民會不會驚惶？大家都說梅山有一個斷層，現在氣象署說那個跟梅山斷層沒有關係，這樣百姓就安心一點，但是在安心之餘，餘震不斷，大樓的住戶大家還是都很怕啦！尤其嘉義市的大樓屋齡三十、四十、五十年的非常多，希望你們可以用心去瞭解一下。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員美惠：來，部長，另外我要請教你有關花蓮的情況。花蓮的那所大學，說實在的，當然大家都很辛苦，不過現在的消防署跟地方消防局、學校好像沒什麼關連，從火災開始到最後，讓人覺得好像平常都沒有演練，化學品放在哪裡，可能沒有統計，也不知情，這三者的關係我覺得處理得並不好，請部長和署長回答一下。"],["林部長右昌：我簡單說一下，大學裡面如果有化學實驗室，其實都會提報相關的計畫給消防局……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！部長，我是說有沒有積極的問題，你看電視或手機實況轉播，我們的化學消防車明顯不足，是不是他們的消防車只是泡沫的、對油的或對什麼的，都不一樣……"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，整個花蓮縣大概有兩部化學消防車，這當然是花蓮縣消防局他們的規劃，但是中央也有準備補助他們，這個計畫已經有了，這是第一個。第二個就是……"],["王委員美惠：部長……"],["林部長右昌：委員，你讓我說明20秒就好。"],["王委員美惠：好，來，20秒。"],["林部長右昌：為什麼自主防災那麼重要？因為火災發生的第一時間，一定要把它壓制住，這次是消防人員到現場以後，火勢已經很大了，我們的人到了現場之後，即便相關的設備沒有辦法把它整個撲滅，但因為安全的關係，也必須保持一定距離待援，所以為什麼我們一直強調自主防災，就是第一時間內控制災害的擴大，這對後續的救災很重要，所以這也是這次事情發生以後，院長特別給他們指示要求要改善。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得我們不要頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，為什麼呢？在高雄發生那個事件之後，你也知道消防署對各縣市的補助都很好，地方欠什麼，中央就補助，但唯一在補助車輛上，其重要性就是要趕快，剛剛我聽到說116年、118年要補助，但今年才113年而已欸！部長，這部分要趕快處理。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["王委員美惠：還有本席要跟你說一下，等一下你也要跟交通部說一下，4月3日有一個邊坡測試，就是4月3日有這個設置，才沒有發生重大事情，而4月6日發生的時候，天佑臺灣，因為那個地方並沒有監測設備。不過，我要告訴你的是，未來地震到底會在哪裡發生，你我都不知道，但無論如何，邊坡的測試要加強，要做更多、更好，我們要超前部署做好，不要等事情發生，才要增加什麼的，那就來不及了，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝王美惠委員的質詢，謝謝部長，但是剛剛交通部鐵路局好像沒有回應這個問題，請司長回應一下，好不好？因為我坐的是前一班火車，我如果是坐那一班火車，也會被石頭砸到！"],["張司長垂龍：主席、委員。剛剛王委員所提的，4月3日的確因為有預警，所以7點58分的地震，太魯閣號班車有根據預警的指示，接受調度中心指示停車，王委員講的最近這一次是發生在和平站南方200公尺位置……"],["主席：未來如何預防？"],["張司長垂龍：它跟公路局的路廊是綁在一起，這個部分我們在去年第四季已經開始執行26個預警告警系統，我們會再重新評估，這一、兩天內，我們會要求鐵路公司就他們規劃中的38處再重新評估，然後提送給交通部，再轉給中央在鐵路公司的特別預算裡來核定。另外就是主席關心的公路跟鐵路合併在一起，路廊接近，我們已經責成鐵路局的花蓮工務段跟公路局的南澳工務段，未來在整治的時候，要協同作業。"],["主席：司長，請問一下，剛剛那個預警部分，你們什麼時候會通過？因為現在餘震很多，而鐵路都是非常快速……"],["張司長垂龍：跟主席報告，因為預警開始運作是在去年的第四季……"],["主席：你告訴我們時間，好不好？不要沒有一個時間限制。"],["張司長垂龍：新的部分，只要中央核定或評估後幾天，我們會要求……"],["主席：你認為中央什麼時候會核定？"],["張司長垂龍：剛剛、剛剛……"],["主席：你們要快速。"],["張司長垂龍：剛剛林部長有提到，就是很快，我們部會協商後，因為上禮拜五下午4點鐘鄭副院長在行政院相關會議已經交代我們重新檢討，在儘速一、兩天內……"],["主席：你們什麼時候會提？因為現在餘震很多啦！"],["張司長垂龍：一、兩天內會提報。"],["王委員美惠：一、兩天內要趕快提啦！"],["主席：對，我跟美惠委員所擔心的真的就是餘震很多，不管是危老建物，尤其是公共運輸上面，真的是非常的擔憂，好不好？"],["張司長垂龍：是，我們會照作業規定，這一、兩天內提報給災害防救委員會、災防辦公室跟……"],["主席：一、兩天內？好，那你們要趕快，提報行政院院會的時候，也麻煩讓本委員會知道，好不好？"],["張司長垂龍：好，是的。"],["主席：加緊速度，謝謝。","我們休息5分鐘，待會再繼續質詢，謝謝。","休息（11時9分）","繼續開會（11時15分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。因為今天人比較多，各部會如果有一些人還沒有時間來得及上化妝室的話，你們可以在當中去上一下。","繼續請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-11","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃建賓","牛煦庭","張智倫","黃捷","李柏毅","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","丁學忠","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra 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其實地方這個紅磚 原來有跟我們同步啦所以我們原來有通締我們的那個維勞輔導團所以跟委員報告說我們的維勞輔導團也會協助地方政府先去篩檢 先去篩市長 如果沒有跟你們同步的呢有的官司長 有的官司部 如果你們同步的呢是因為那個地方完全沒紅磚沒紅磚"},{"start":213.84,"end":218.325,"text":"是,這就是說是陰謀通報的民眾如果跟電影政府說其實通佈我們的通緝所有的技術因為這技術不是電影政府派是我們的通緝國際的這個技術會請去看"},{"start":230.058,"end":238.422,"text":"更重要的是有大人或大人,這個資料有多高呢?師傅,今天的技術到目前為止,全台灣如果要選擇,你們的領域有夠嗎?技術是有夠啦!有夠喔!我跟委員報告,我們這次已經動用一千一百多個技術但是現在目前有去現場評估的,都有去現場評估有四百多個"},{"start":254.489,"end":261.274,"text":"有400多個跟你們合作的,可以去看的,還要有救力是,所以目前你看到單獨在法院這69個基礎到這陣子還要每天去看喔,他們辛苦啦今天又有69個基礎每天去看為什麼要跟你談到這?就是法院你看這個情形的時候還有管制,我覺得也有友誼在的時候,大家也有煩惱所以說,我們要怎麼去合作"},{"start":283.209,"end":286.413,"text":"所以感謝主要民眾如果有通報我這邊有通報電影集團會直接告訴我們通緝技術去看有的電影集團如果有經驗他自己也會通緝技術去看我們就建立這個資料"},{"start":299.868,"end":313.238,"text":"有時候每一個官司沒有感冒,有的他的高度、他的所在是三四八檔的社區,在這個地方救不上委員會,以我來說,我是在教育局的,教育局救不上那五十檔的大樓,要夠有九千多台"},{"start":322.526,"end":329.816,"text":"在這個過程當中,加起來有很多更好看最近在13項的災害投擲"},{"start":331.937,"end":335.938,"text":"因為我們之前有說過未來可能的三級和四級對自己來說這就會走下來所以我們不是說因為要怎麼死我們先要說的就是不能讓百姓走下去要不然要安心百姓的心"},{"start":356.883,"end":360.866,"text":"他剛才的暗斷暗斷,我就是來講,電影政府,他有在做,但最主要有的他在大樓,他就沒主意啊,跟大家罵,沒辦法用啊,跟這一事要如何如何是好,這個是最重要啦,是對嗎?"},{"start":376.559,"end":396.484,"text":"是啊,所以過去因為像高雄城中城那個事件後我們開始已經有修法頂多感謝我們委員會我們有通過可是我們現在不管你過去有沒有成立或是剛好我們的要求有一個福德基金一定要做成立這個委員會就是就是說只要有去打這個選擇我們的這個輔導團我們的同體電影政府要把他們叫出來我們要相關先去了解就是說這樣來協助他們"},{"start":405.206,"end":425.096,"text":"就是說盡量去協助他們去做這件事啊盡量去協助,要不然不是把大傢伙大傢伙大傢伙我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?我們有什麼事?"},{"start":434.421,"end":438.225,"text":"要不然就沒看到數目出來啦數目要對啦規定委員會就要支持啦你跟委員報告因為現在都持續還在評估啦全體都還在評估啦好啦 評估像我剛才說的稍微第12次的時候你看會怕嗎?不會怕嗎?"},{"start":451.798,"end":456.043,"text":"所以大家都說歐北山有一個斷層,現在我們去想說歐北山的斷層沒關係,北山就安心,但是安心的當中,那個一陣大雨"},{"start":467.074,"end":473.596,"text":"大家要很緊張,尤其是今年大流的三四十年五十年有夠多你也用心去了解一下好來補充,在這兩天我來請教我們花蓮我們花蓮校、大學那間說實在不知道當然是大家都很辛苦"},{"start":490.64,"end":505.529,"text":"但現在消防署、電影消防局和我們的學校是無關的你如果看到開始恢修到最後的時候讓人覺得"},{"start":507.49,"end":522.527,"text":"這避兇時都沒有的眼鏈的看,你們的東西的化合東西放在哪裡,可能也沒有,通檢也不知道你們這個災的關係,我感覺都處理不好,來,請部長和署長回答一下"},{"start":524.534,"end":541.284,"text":"我簡單講一下因為這個大學裡面它如果有化學實驗室的話它其實都會提報相關的一個計劃給消防局不是啦 署長 相關我是說有資質或沒有資質你看到電視和視況我們的手機上會想說可是我們的消防的化學、消防車不足"},{"start":549.329,"end":552.293,"text":"是否會讓我們的消防車和泡沫有的跟有的跟什麼的都不一樣?整個花蓮縣大概是有兩部的化學消防車"},{"start":567.731,"end":580.442,"text":"這個當然是花蓮縣的消防局他們的規劃但是中央我們也有準備要來補助這幾位已經有了這一個 第二個是因為我們為什麼委員你讓我說26日就好 26日就好"},{"start":583.745,"end":593.576,"text":"自主防災為什麼那麼重要?因為你災害發生的第一時間你一定要把它壓制住這次是我們的小紅林丸到現場之後火已經很大了"},{"start":598.141,"end":625.103,"text":"在現場之後即便是這個相關的一個設備沒有辦法去把它整個做鋪面所以因為安全的關係必須要這個保持一個距離然後帶圓所以為什麼我們在強調就是自主防災在第一個時間裡面去控制那個災害的擴大這個對後續的救災很重要所以這也是這次疫情發生後有特別的回憶來得及時邀請要改善的"},{"start":627.706,"end":629.489,"text":"這件事不能靠靠頂他頭、靠頂他腳因為什麼呢?"},{"start":634.266,"end":646.897,"text":"你去高雄發生這件事以後你也要相信六個縣市的補助都很好你選擇中央就補助你什麼要不然有他的補助車的重要性都要很快剛才我聽到說一百十六年要補助一百十八年今年才一百三年而已"},{"start":661.869,"end":667.713,"text":"補充這國軍退除役,還有本席要跟你講一下,說當年交通部的營業你要怎麼講一下,我們市委催生有一個邊坡,主席抱歉,還有10分鐘給我,這個邊坡的測試的時候,我們就是市委催生有這個"},{"start":684.303,"end":690.066,"text":"設置該無發生重大事件,然而在4月7日發生的時候是天佑台灣,那個地方我們沒有監測的,然而本身要在這裡跟你們說,就是說無論未來的地點到底會在哪裡發生或不在哪裡發生,你我都不知道,"},{"start":713.687,"end":726.857,"text":"點過這個鋪邊坡的測試您要加強,要再做多做好我們是要超前部署,讓做好,不然事情發生,還要來加強、要加強,又不會好好,謝謝美匯委員的質詢,謝謝部長但是剛剛交通部、鐵路局好像沒有回應這個問題"},{"start":737.642,"end":758.351,"text":"你回應一下好不好剛剛沒會主席委員就是剛剛王委員所提的因為我說的是前一班火車我如果是4月3號的確是因為有預警所以7點58分的地震太魯閣號的車車室有根據預警的指示接受調度中心指示停那在"},{"start":759.211,"end":780.74,"text":"王委員講的最近這一次是在發生在和平站南方200公尺位置他跟公路局是路廊是綁在一起所以這個部分我們在已經在去年第4季開始執行的26個預警告警系統我們會再重新評估那這一兩天內我們會要求"},{"start":781.639,"end":806.588,"text":"鐵路局、鐵路公司就是不是他們規劃中的38處再重新評估提送給交通部再轉給中央來在鐵路公司的特別預算裡面來做核定另外就是主席您關心的公路跟鐵路合併在一起路廊接近我們已經折騰鐵路局的花蓮公路段跟公路局的南澳公路段未來在整治的時候要協同作業要協同作業"},{"start":807.148,"end":831.569,"text":"市長請問一下剛剛那個預警那個你們什麼時候會通過因為現在餘政很多欸那個那個那個鐵路都是非常的快速因為預警他開始運作是在去年的第四季我們開始在運作你告訴我們時間好不好不要沒有一個時間的限制只要中央核定後或比較評估為幾天我們會邀請你認為中央什麼時候會核定"},{"start":836.113,"end":851.058,"text":"剛剛林部長有提到就是說很快我們部會協商後如果像中央預算因為上禮拜五下午4點鐘政府院長在院會裡面在行政院的相關會議已經交代我們重新檢討再進促這一兩天內你們什麼時候會提因為現在漁戰很多"},{"start":854.159,"end":854.459,"text":"休息5分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}