{"error":false,"id":["151214"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151214,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151214","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T09:32:17+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T09:42:51+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627bfe8c331e68657fef65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c94ea10da310c6467805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:32:17 - 09:42:51","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":373,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時32分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請法務部蔡次長、衛福部郭副司長以及警政署的斯副組長。"],["主席：請蔡次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有副司長跟副組長。"],["主席：好，請上臺，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們今天都非常關切對兒少的凌虐、侵害，其實和我們之前關心的兒少剝削，這都是重要的課題，侵犯兒少的方法有很多種，包括影像消費、包括凌虐，我想請教一下副司長，兒少保護我們追求的有三個層次，我想請教，第一個，我們要減少它的發生對不對？這是首要之務，第二個，如果發生了，我們要及早察覺，是不是？第三個，已經發覺了，那我們是不是要能夠課責、抓到犯法、犯罪的人？這是我們兒少保護的目標嘛！"],["郭副司長彩榕：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得今天我們加強刑法的刑度，是不是對第三個有用，即加強課責？"],["郭副司長彩榕：我想可以達到一些嚇阻的效果。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們也需要去加強察覺問題的發生，及早發現，也需要去減少問題的發生，同不同意？"],["郭副司長彩榕：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。次長，在上週的記者會，針對影像消費、剝削兒少，我提出徒法不足以自行、枉法不足以致刑。意思是，我們常常說，立法委員如果立了法，執法機關不去做是沒有用的，你同不同意？"],["蔡次長碧仲：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是如果不是法律的缺漏，是既有的法律，執法機關它沒有依照現有法律的規範，那就沒有辦法對於犯罪者予以課刑，你同不同意？"],["蔡次長碧仲：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以修法是一個最後手段，但是我們要求執法者要落實執行，你覺得是不是目前針對剝削兒少、凌虐兒少的方式，打擊犯罪更為有效？"],["蔡次長碧仲：完全同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，考你一題，我們對於野生動物保育常常說，大大的一個國際愛護保育動物的都說，購買造成殺害，你買犀牛角製品就造成犀牛被殺害，請問你認為就野保法來講，購買是不是一種犯罪？"],["蔡次長碧仲：當然我沒有把握，但我認為應該要處罰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！假設我們過去常看到的，有人去山產店，山產店裡面已經有宰殺好的，他說，我要吃這個、我要吃那個，點了菜，這樣有沒有侵犯到野生動保育的權利？"],["蔡次長碧仲：這個要看證據，通常坊間會聽到一些人在開玩笑說吃東西之前不要問，問了以後就會知道這是不是受保護的動物。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以如果購買已經陳列的山產，在你不知道的情況之下，可能罪責還比較輕一點。"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒有犯意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有犯意？好。"],["蔡次長碧仲：因為吃東西，如果你不確知這個是受保護的，要用刑責去罰，這不公平！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是如果我今天要招待朋友，我跟山產店說，我明天要招待朋友，我要去吃山珍海味，你給我做什麼菜、什麼菜、什麼菜，然後對方拿了訂單，晚上就去打獵，你覺得這樣指定品項的下單有沒有更嚴重？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有沒有未必故意啦！我們大家心知肚明嘛！你現在要吃山羌，或是吃什麼東西，如果沒有講，哪有山羌可以吃？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以假設有山羌、有白鼻心、有穿山甲、臺灣黑熊，我指名要求這些品項，指定品項下單是不是比到店挑選消費，在犯罪上更嚴重？"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒有人買贓物就不會有人偷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你認為這個是更嚴重的？"],["蔡次長碧仲：更嚴重，是的！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得哪個最嚴重？山羌、白鼻心、穿山甲、臺灣黑熊，哪個最嚴重？"],["蔡次長碧仲：都嚴重，當然啦！我們現在是針對哪些是瀕臨滅絕的，很可能會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長很有sense，山羌跟白鼻心不是保育類，穿山甲跟臺灣黑熊是保育類的，你點到保育類就非常的嚴重，但是非保育類的還有另外的問題。","好，我們來看一下野生動物保育法，幫你揭曉了。野保法第四十條，如果你是買賣保育類的野生動物要罰30萬元以上150萬元以下的罰金，但是如果你是去獵捕，是20萬元以上100萬元以下，你覺得買賣比較嚴重，還是獵捕比較嚴重？在這個法條上。"],["蔡次長碧仲：就我來講，我認為買賣最起碼不低於獵捕。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是目前實務上，對於野保的消費、買賣的罪責，目前課責是比獵捕更嚴重。就是說，你們這些買賣、消費的人才是罪魁禍首，因為沒有你們去買賣、消費，其實後面的獵捕不會發生，這個法的立法要旨是不是這樣？"],["蔡次長碧仲：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，今天我們來談了，上個星期大家都在談一個叫做創意私房的高級會員，他們是不是透過影像消費來剝削兒少？"],["蔡次長碧仲：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在案情當中，這個創意私房有分兩種，一般會員上網去選單，他看了這個就買了，那就送給他看。另外一種叫VIP的高級會員，他說我想要看哪個類型的，你們要幫我去找，然後他們就去找，找到媒合拍攝者，你覺得在這個情況之下哪一個比較嚴重？"],["蔡次長碧仲：當然是第二種，叫他們去找、去創造的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個黃姓藝人，他是哪一種？"],["蔡次長碧仲：第二種。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是第二種。所以我們很清楚，在這個案子上，他不是一般單純的到影像平臺上看單選購，他的會員資格足以讓他要求這個平臺幫他去找這樣的影片，甚至請人家去拍攝。那我請問一下，懸賞影片在這種情況之下，等不等同於教唆殺人？我要殺一個人，我去買凶，我說我要懸賞誰的人頭，我出了價錢，你覺得……"],["蔡次長碧仲：當然這個是可以這樣比喻啦！這個類型雖然刑責上是有差，但類型是可以這樣比喻沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，不只購買跟懸賞。我們看下一頁，這個平臺還可以提供分潤，如果你是高級會員，你指名要購買，人家幫你拍了，你拿到了，你又傳上去給大家來看，你還可以得到分潤，你覺得這個是不是已經不只是教唆殺人了？還是共謀殺人。"],["蔡次長碧仲：共犯就是行為的分擔、意思的聯絡，所以這個部分只要有合致一樣，他就是屬於共犯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！所以這個案件，兩年多來，這個創意私房有三千兩百多次交易，4個錢包收款了2,800萬，最近一次購買是在4月10號，上個禮拜而已，黃案爆發後仍然在交易，請問法務部，你認為警政署這邊要不要查？"],["蔡次長碧仲：當然要查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要查？好，但是怎麼查？他們用什麼交易？"],["蔡次長碧仲：跟委員報告，這個案件不是只有案發以後的交易，它的緩起訴有7件，這個緩起訴現在都被送進去檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：重裁了沒？"],["蔡次長碧仲：現在因為緩起訴還要再送到高檢署。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，會重裁就對了？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我心裡面有答案，但我不能講。"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解，尊重高檢。所以這個案子的麻煩在哪裡？它的麻煩在於，這個創意私房是用虛幣交易，用虛擬資產。目前我們的虛幣交易有沒有辦法追查到是誰在使用？"],["蔡次長碧仲：跟委員報告，這個是委員一直關心的議題，現在有關虛擬的部分，以前是沒有主管部會，未來很可能會歸給金管會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以本案有沒有辦法查到誰是高級會員？誰用虛幣去購買？有沒有辦法查到？"],["蔡次長碧仲：因為陸陸續續的經驗告訴我們，這些案件以前查不到，現在都有機會可以查得到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，法務部和警政署，如果未來使用國外非實名制虛擬資產交易平臺，能不能追查到犯罪交易？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以喔？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，他如果用境外的電商平臺委託外國人士代為虛擬資產交易，可不可以查到犯罪人士？"],["蔡次長碧仲：也有可能。因為我們現在自詡為科技的法務部，我們希望透過未來在大院很可能通過的科技偵查法，各方面的法律……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，你們送來了沒有？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我們包括打詐專法，還有科技偵查法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們趕快送來，好不好？"],["蔡次長碧仲：如果我會後確知再跟委員報告，應該很快。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。如果以本案為例，本次創意私房虛擬貨幣交易往來帳號持有人能不能定罪？"],["蔡次長碧仲：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：保證？可以定罪，好！最後，目前的科技犯罪是否多為組織犯罪，能不能加重其刑？"],["蔡次長碧仲：這個絕對可以，因為這種組織型犯罪本來就是我們要嚴以打擊的對象。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以除了今天的本題之外，我提出兩個要求，請和警政署共同研議使用國外非實名制虛擬資產交易平臺追查犯罪交易的方式，3個月提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，使用境外的電商平臺委請外國人士代為虛擬資產交易，追查犯罪人士的方法；也是一樣，提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月夠不夠？還是可以更早給我？"],["蔡次長碧仲：給我們寬一點的時間會更完整。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就這樣，謝謝。","要請主席裁示，他答應了嘛，主席請做個裁示，謝謝。"],["主席：好，那就麻煩法務部依照委員的要求辦理。"],["蔡次長碧仲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第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«中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":223.237,"end":238.128,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條條文修正草案．一）委員廖"},{"start":248.325,"end":273.454,"text":"沒有人買賬戶就不會有人偷。」所以你認為這個是更嚴重的?你覺得哪個最嚴重?三槍白皮芯穿山甲台灣黑熊哪個最嚴重?多嚴重?當然啦!我們現在是針對說哪些是瀕臨這個秘訣的齁?市長很有sense齁?三槍跟白皮芯不是保育類的啦!穿山甲跟台灣黑熊是保育類的啦!你點到了保育類的齁?就非常的嚴重啦!"},{"start":273.894,"end":288.125,"text":"但是非保育類的還有另外的問題好我們來看一下野生動物保育法幫你揭曉了也包括第40條如果你是買賣的保育類的野生動物是要罰30萬到100萬30萬以上100萬150萬以下的罰金但是如果你是去獵捕是20萬以上100萬以下你覺得買賣比較嚴重還是獵捕比較嚴重"},{"start":298.598,"end":320.464,"text":"在這個法條上就我來講我認為買賣最起碼不低於獵捕好但是在目前實務上呢你對於野保的消費買賣的罪責目前克責是比獵捕更嚴重就是說你們這些買賣消費的人才是罪魁禍首因為沒有你們去買賣消費其實獵捕的後面不會發生"},{"start":321.434,"end":341.283,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七"},{"start":349.887,"end":363.834,"text":"三（委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會"},{"start":373.155,"end":394.034,"text":"影像平台上他是看單選購他是直接要求他的費員資格足以讓他要求這個平台幫他去找這樣的影片甚至請人家去拍攝那我請問一下懸賞影片在這種情況之下等不等同於教唆殺人我要殺一個人我去買兇我說我要懸賞誰的人頭我出的價錢"},{"start":399.002,"end":413.176,"text":"當然這個比喻是可以這樣比喻啦所以這個類型雖然行則上是有差啦類型是可以這樣比喻沒錯好那不只購買跟選項我們看下一頁那還可以這個平台還可以提供分論喔"},{"start":414.582,"end":419.224,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百七"},{"start":435.692,"end":458.464,"text":"所以這個部分只要有合字一樣他就是屬於共犯很好所以這一個案件他兩年多來這個創意處施訪他有三千兩百多次四個錢包收款了兩千八百萬最近的一次購買是在四月十號上禮拜而已黃案爆發後仍然在交易請問網路部你認為警政署這邊要不要查"},{"start":459.312,"end":470.24,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第13次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":477.845,"end":491.788,"text":"二）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人"},{"start":509.022,"end":527.213,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條文修正草案．一"},{"start":534.39,"end":560.343,"text":"法務部請問,如果未來使用國外會實名制的虛擬資產交易平台,能不能追查到犯罪交易?有可能。另外,他如果用境外的電商平台委託外國人士代為虛擬資產的交易,可不可以查到專案這個人士?有可能,因為現在法務部,我們現在自詡為科技的法務部,我們希望透過未來在大院很可能通過的科技偵查法,各方面的法律。那你們送來了沒有?"},{"start":561.063,"end":571.293,"text":"三）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案（事由）立法院第11屆第12屆議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案（事由）立法院第17屆議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第17屆議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第17屆議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第17屆議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第17屆議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第17"},{"start":587.479,"end":604.61,"text":"這個絕對可以,因為這種組織性犯罪本來就是我們要嚴以打擊的對象。好,所以除了今天的本題之外,我希望兩個要求請研議和警政署共同研究使用國外非實名制虛擬資產交易平台追查犯罪交易的方式"},{"start":605.19,"end":608.012,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}