{"error":false,"id":["151223"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151223,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151223","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,19],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","經濟委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T09:30:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T09:37:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162779a0a17d5b868db28f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:30:51 - 09:37:30","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時30分）我請原民會的副主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委。"],["張委員宏陸：還有環境部的組長和農業部林業及自然保育署的副署長。"],["主席：有請環境部組長、有請副署長，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，今天我們討論禁伐補償，當然規定原住民所有保護區的土地不能開發或是什麼的，我覺得這對他們的經濟是有影響，今天大家說要再來擴大、再來提高，其實我認為都是可以、值得討論的，不過，我從另外一個面向來跟您討論一下，其實原住民族保留地裡面或我們現在說的禁伐範圍裡面，有很多的地區其實都是竹林，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。像北部竹林比較多。"],["張委員宏陸：竹林、竹子大概幾年內就會死掉，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["張委員宏陸：如果不去砍伐它，林相會變得不好，也會變成大量竹子的枯死，而且枯死你又不能去處理，就會更混亂，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，必須要疏伐。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對！對！對！"],["張委員宏陸：所以要禁伐補助，這是一個面向，都可以討論，我也不反對，但我們不能有積極一點的嗎？這是可以創造經濟價值的東西，難道我們就是一個禁伐，然後就補助？你不能替他們開另外一條路？這個竹子是可以創造很多的產值，我們可以朝這個方向思考，可以讓我們的原住民創造這些經濟價值，這比領這些補償金還有更多的價值，我們的農業部、環境部、原民會，都應該要朝這個方向去輔導他，創造更多的經濟價值才對，你們覺得要不要這樣做？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這個部分我們也在配合農業部，有針對竹林更新獎勵的作業規範，以配合這個工作的推動。"],["張委員宏陸：你們的成效呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分當然我們也是協助農業部來做一個宣傳，讓族人能夠來執行竹林的採伐、疏伐等相關工作。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，很多的地主會認為，如果他去疏伐竹林，可能就無法滿足我們條例規定的竹林覆蓋率七成或其他什麼的規定，大家都知道，竹林就是要疏伐，而且可以創造經濟價值，臺灣以前一年產量是230萬枝的國產竹子，一路下滑到現在不到100萬枝，這樣損失了多少經濟價值？他可能不瞭解其實他去疏伐，如果我們突破法令，讓他去疏伐，反而可以拿更多錢，對不對？可能你們宣導不夠，讓他認為都不能，結果變成我們竹子還要進口。竹子本來就是要疏伐，農業部，對不對？是不是？"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嗎？"],["林副署長澔貞：對，是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們應該換一個角度來看，對於非竹林部分，我們該如何補助？至於竹林部分，我們反而應該要輔導他們，讓他們可以賺得到更多錢，是不是應該這樣？是嘛？所以原民會與農業部應該要好好思考這個問題，好好輔導他們，可不可以？"],["林副署長澔貞：可以。"],["張委員宏陸：可不可以？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["林副署長澔貞：有關竹林疏伐的部分，我們會跟原民會互相配合，來做一些配套措施。"],["張委員宏陸：要多久？"],["林副署長澔貞：我們已經有竹林更新獎勵辦法，並於112年2月1日推動。由於去年度只是行銷宣導期，所以件數比較少，面積比較少，但這部分我們會持續推動。"],["張委員宏陸：我為什麼要問你們這個？其實我去問了，很少人知道你們有這些獎勵措施，而且你們還要宣導這跟禁伐什麼的不同，所以你們要去把法令弄清楚，這跟禁伐有沒有衝突什麼的，你要讓他們知道自己可以選擇最高的，這個你們應該讓他們知道，對不對？"],["林副署長澔貞：是，我們這一年一直都在原住民鄉鎮做一些行銷工作，開說明會向大家做說明。"],["張委員宏陸：我的意思就是說明不夠，很多人不知道！再來是環境部，我們現在都在講碳權什麼的，不管是禁伐也好，竹林也好，難道我們不能在碳權交易上輔導他們嗎？這些可以有碳權交易嗎？可以嗎？"],["蘇組長意筠：先跟委員報告，環境部與農業部有合作機制，農業部也在今天提出竹林經營方法學交環境部審查，未來不管是事業或政府機關，後續只要透過我們審定的這個方法學來從事竹林經營，就可以取得剛剛委員所提到的減量額度，也就是碳權。之後就可以到臺灣碳權……"],["張委員宏陸：這個我知道。我的意思是除了竹林之外還有很多保育林，這些可不可以有碳權什麼的都要納入研究。如果有碳權什麼的話，搞不好他拿到的比這個補助更多啊！"],["蘇組長意筠：這會提供另外一個誘因。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得要多方面去解決這個問題，好不好？"],["蘇組長意筠：好。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["蘇組長意筠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢，謝謝原民會副主委。","繼續請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":223.194,"end":246.535,"text":"非竹林的部分我們如何去補助但如果是竹林的部分我們應該反而要去輔導他們可以賺得到更多錢啊是不是應該這樣是嘛齁所以我覺得雲民會跟這個農業部啊你們應該要去好好思考這個問題啊好好的輔導他們啊可不可以"},{"start":253.558,"end":261.828,"text":"對,這個就是如果竹林的抒發這個部分,我們會跟這個原民會互相配合,來做一些配套的措施。要多久啊?"},{"start":264.538,"end":283.8,"text":"現在是就有一個我們已經有一個竹林更新獎勵的這樣子的一個辦法出來了那112年2月1號已經推動了那去年度因為只是在行銷宣導期所以那個件數比較少面積比較少那所以這個部分我們還是會持續持續推動"},{"start":285.941,"end":304.333,"text":"我為什麼要問你們這個我去問啦很少人知道你們有這些這些獎勵這些什麼而且你們還要宣導這個跟禁法或什麼或是你們要去把它法令弄清楚這個跟禁法阿其實有沒有衝突有沒有什麼你要讓他們知道我可以選擇最高的你們應該讓他們知道這個啊對不對"},{"start":310.353,"end":329.466,"text":"立法院第1次聯席會議第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人"},{"start":339.076,"end":346.882,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":368.973,"end":370.294,"text":"到臺灣探險交易所 。"},{"start":393.916,"end":393.976,"text":"審查委員鄭天財"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}