{"error":false,"id":["151230"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151230,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151230","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T10:02:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T10:13:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:03","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016273a2732d1731c4f44f65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c947ec09d647ab4e3bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:02:26 - 10:13:29","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時2分）主席，我請次長跟副秘書長。"],["主席：好，請次長跟副秘書長。"],["謝委員龍介：蔡次長。"],["蔡次長碧仲：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：你好，辛苦了，人家說治亂世要用重典，照理說民主社會到現在這麼多年了，是不應該還有這種思維，可是社會教育也好、學校教育也好、家庭教育也好，造成今天的社會亂象。譬如說剛才羅委員說的，單單去年一年，凌虐小孩或年輕人的就一萬兩千三百多件，若不是有特別少數的這兩三件，因為媒體的曝光，造成輿情的譁然、人心惶惶。","我們國家現在少子化是很嚴重的，你們在國安單位，你們參加的會議這麼多，這已經變成國安的問題了，年輕人多數就是敢戀愛、不敢結婚，敢結婚、不敢生小孩，敢生小孩、養不起，所以就變成「一年掃墓，一年少人」，這是一個事實啊！就在少子化了，孩子越生越少，如果我們沒有用法律來對他多加保護，還讓他造成戕害之後，我們國家所有國安的問題當然未來會越來越嚴重。所以我覺得加重刑期還是刑度加強，相信不但你認同，社會也會認同。","不過本院於2019年才修而已，為什麼現在要再修法？是不是表示我們在法律的執行，剛才你也有提到，在法律的執行過程中，尤其法務部門，你們的求刑跟司法單位的判刑是不是有出問題，造成這些人無恐懼嘛！我看到古早凌遲致死是大刑，結果現在不懂事的小孩，在最信賴的兩個地方，一個是家長最信賴的學校，我把小孩送去學校就很放心；一個就是保母，我送給保母就很安心，殊不知在這兩個地方，這一萬兩千多件中多數都在這個地方發生。所以我覺得對這個刑度要怎麼加重，我相信你們也不會有意見，不外乎就是你提供專業，比如七歲、六歲、三歲、十二歲、十八歲，七歲是有原因的，因為我們的國家是強制義務教育，七歲來學校讀書，有人凌遲你的時候，同儕之間或是老師輔導的過程中會發覺，所以七歲以下是沒有，發生最嚴重的也差不多都在七歲以下啦！","對這個問題的修法，我今天要和你們兩個探討的就是，這個案件的這種刑度，是不是要判死刑、是不是可以把它訂到這個刑度？這讓本會再繼續討論，但是，對於臺灣這種驚心動魄的案件不斷地發生，4月23日大法官法庭要辯論廢除死刑，次長，我請教你，因為今天部長剛好沒來，部長可能最近心情不美麗，所以請你來，你可知道法務部要派什麼人代表出席這個會議？"],["蔡次長碧仲：司長，檢察司郭司長。"],["謝委員龍介：準備好了沒？"],["蔡次長碧仲：準備好了。"],["謝委員龍介：有信心嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有信心。我跟委員報告，那不是大法官要做的工作，死刑或非死刑可以討論，但是要立法、行政機關大家有共識，立法機關是最貼近民意的，如果真正要死刑……"],["謝委員龍介：本席在這裡給你肯定……"],["蔡次長碧仲：立法院來弄，不用司法院來弄。"],["謝委員龍介：因為他們不斷說我們國家已經簽署人權兩公約，既然你這樣說，大法官在上個月的解釋令裡面說，如果是無期徒刑，假釋出去再犯的時候，不能一次再關他25年，應該關5年至10年、10年至15年，都他在訂的，他是不是有干涉本院立法的權責，你覺得他有這個嫌疑嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我也不替你們說話……"],["謝委員龍介：不用、不用、不用。"],["蔡次長碧仲：我跟你們說，這個工作，全臺灣八成的民意現在還是反對。"],["謝委員龍介：84%以上。"],["蔡次長碧仲：就是八成以上的民意反對。你要訂這個，我們說我們要看全世界對於死刑的看法跟他們實際上的作法，幾個國家要處理死刑都是大家經過有共識之後再處理，所以……"],["謝委員龍介：你對法務部這次去辯論有信心，這樣你對於大法官最後的裁定會有信心嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：那是我們大法官，今天副秘書長也在這裡，我們不能對……"],["謝委員龍介：我先問你啊！"],["蔡次長碧仲：我們有信心、沒信心，不能在這裡說，因為我們努力就好，我們就是……"],["謝委員龍介：你都會給人家暗示，你暗示一下，有樂觀嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我暗示會被誤解，我就在這裡、跟你說……"],["謝委員龍介：這樣我請副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：副秘書長，我看你們大法官最後解釋的這兩個案出來，我真的沒信心啦！4月23日辯論後3個月內就要裁嘛！如果你們把它裁定出來是真的廢除死刑，我不知道你跟賴清德的交情怎樣，這個裁下去有可能他5月20日就職之後馬上就跛腳，民意會反撲。對於大法官憲法法庭這次4月23日的辯論，你有什麼看法？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們是司法院的行政單位，我們算是幕僚單位，我們本身也不是大法官……"],["謝委員龍介：你們秘書長就不要來啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們秘書長本身也不是大法官，他也不能對大法官將來會怎麼判斷……"],["謝委員龍介：你們把那麼多法官都調去做大法官的助理，害法官都已經忍不住而自殺了，你們大家都不同感、不替基層這些法官說一些話，對不對？像法務部，人家要求追加人員，我們全都大概要支持了，結果你們把人家捏住，捏到說順便要揹小孩，你們才說最高法院要追加多少人。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，最高法院沒有說要追加人，現在是整個司法的人不夠，我們去跟人事總處、跟行政院求說拜託讓我們總員額法可以解套，我們就不會「凍未條」了。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，現在曝出來的就是大法官調這麼多法官去做助理，這件事情本院聽到都很不滿，難怪地方檢察官辦那麼多案件，那麼多詐騙的起訴之後，到法院大家都輕判，檢察官奔波到都「憨臉」了，結果到法院輕判，法官說他沒辦法，對不對？案件那麼多，大家都辦到加班，原來是你們上面把人力抽走啊！所以抓到最後就是這樣！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，法官4個……"],["謝委員龍介：最後我請教，4月23日你對大法官廢除死刑這個辯論，法務部長說他有絕對的信心，可以捍衛現在超過84%以上的民意，你是司法院的行政人員，你有信心嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想大法官應該會斟酌各方面的立場，作為行政單位，我們不方便表示意見，但是希望大家對大法官要有信心。"],["謝委員龍介：對他有信心是不會廢除就對了？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我跟委員報告，這個我們不知道結果會怎……"],["謝委員龍介：我剛才問你的意思是，有信心就表示法務部的立場會贊成喔！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我跟委員報告，因為大法官會斟酌……"],["謝委員龍介：你是對大法官有信心，不是對法務部有信心？次長，你有聽到了嘛？"],["蔡次長碧仲：不要誤會他，他的意思跟我們差不多。"],["謝委員龍介：他的意思跟你差不多就對了？這個說清楚，不然你回去後，現在網路上人家會找你啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們是幕僚單位，甚至連大法官會議我都沒有去參加過一次，所以會怎樣，說實在的，我沒辦法跟你說。"],["謝委員龍介：你來這裡回話，你跟蔡碧仲就差有夠多了。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["謝委員龍介：他回話就很「阿莎力」。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["謝委員龍介：人家說「刣魚刣到鰓」，說話要說「透枝」，而你都說一半，這樣我們會誤解，現在次長就又替你解釋，叫我不要誤會你。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為法務部本身是當事人，他可以說明他們的立場，但是我們不方便。"],["謝委員龍介：好啦！感謝你。","次長，要加油啦！這條廢除死刑，我跟你說，千萬要守住。"],["蔡次長碧仲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.785343750000001,"end":6.764093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.185968750000001,"end":7.9790937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.45159375,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.285968750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.41534375,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.49909375,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.67034375,"end":43.28159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委員好 辛苦啊人家說在亂世要用黨定 照你講民主社會到現在這麼多年 是不應該還有這種思維可是社會高也好 學校高也好 家庭高也好"},{"start":67.332,"end":81.996,"text":"則稱今日的社會亂象．．若如剛才羅委員說的．．單單一年．．九年一年．．認定這個年輕的．．年輕的．．一萬兩千三百多個．．若不是有特別接受這兩三個．．因為媒體不公的．．"},{"start":94.502,"end":112.589,"text":"造成污染的化臉,民心洪洪。」我們的國家現在的銷售法是有夠嚴重的,相信你們在這個國安單位,你們參加會議那些人,這一定是變成國安的問題。年輕人得手就是怎樣?加戀愛,不加結婚。加結婚不加生子,加生子死不去。"},{"start":123.151,"end":139.541,"text":"所以這變成一年裁判一年招攬,這是一個事實啊。啊人就在消除法,孩子越生越小,可是我們若沒有用法律來對他打架保護啊,還給他造成這個搶害之後,這對我們國家的所謂國安的問題當然未來的越來越嚴重嘛。"},{"start":147.901,"end":160.824,"text":"所以我覺得加長期刑或是在刑罪加強,相信不但在認同社會也認同,但是本來19年才修而已,19年才修而已,為什麼現在要再修法?是不是表示我們在法律的執行,剛才你說到在法律的執行的過程中,"},{"start":176.739,"end":192.622,"text":"尤其法務部門您的究竟到司法單位您的判刑是不是有出問題了。首先這些人無窮期嘛。我就看到孩子,以前你看領地、地勢,那是大型的。結果現在在不發生事情的孩子"},{"start":206.554,"end":213.916,"text":"刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．刑法第二百八十六條條文"},{"start":235.936,"end":249.221,"text":"其實我相信你們也不會有意見不論是在你提供的專頁比如說7月6月3月12月18月這7月是有原因的啊因為我們的國家是經濟義務教育啊7月你來好好討債啊有人把你領地的時候董財機關或是老師輔導的過程中會發覺啊所以7月以下是沒有啊"},{"start":266.058,"end":268.76,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":288.005,"end":316.712,"text":"三）委員黃思詠等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案〉案件。但是對著台灣不斷這種驚心動脾的案件不斷在發生四月二三我們的大法官發生的要來辯論匯讀私刑。出庭我請教你,今天補庭我就沒來,補庭很可能心情不美麗,所以請你來。"},{"start":319.332,"end":332.012,"text":"你知不知法務部派什麼人去代表出席這個會議?是對,檢察司委是對,郭司長準備好了嗎?準備好了有信心嗎?有信心"},{"start":334.383,"end":360.978,"text":"我信心 我跟委員報告齁 那不是台法官要做的工作啦 要施行不施行可以討論但是 要 立法 行政 這機關大家有共識 但立法機關是最貼近民意的 如果真正要實行 我們的立法 立法院來弄 不用司法院來弄因為吶 因為是不斷說 我們國家已經簽署零款兩公約啦齁"},{"start":362.878,"end":374.284,"text":"啊 既然你這樣說 台法官在針對我的解釋裡面說是無機奪行 假釋處理 齁 再犯的時候 不可以一半再關二十五檔 應該關五檔 四十檔 十檔 四十五檔 都在針對他心想八十分以立法的款式 你覺得他有這個嫌疑嗎?那個 我不得替你們講話啦齁 我跟你們講這個考慮啦"},{"start":390.59,"end":417.512,"text":"全體委員會八成的民意現在又是反對嘛。八十四趴以上。啊就八成以上的民意反對嘛。啊你要頂接全世界,我們說我們要看全世界對私刑的看法及他們的世界上的做法,整個國家要處理私刑的,都是大家經過有共識後才處理啦。所以我沒有報一半去辯論有信心,這樣你對大法官最後的裁定會有信心嗎?"},{"start":419.31,"end":439.699,"text":"議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第12屆議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．立法院第12屆議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．立法院第12屆議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「中華民國刑法"},{"start":448.922,"end":462.105,"text":"卡蘇,你如果把他裁定出來啦,是真的匯讀私刑。我不知道你跟大廠在那裡究竟怎麼做。這個裁了,有可能他國會理責就職後馬上就衰敗卡。民意的反撲。副秘書長你對著大法官、憲法法庭、一般的市委理事,你有什麼看法?"},{"start":473.695,"end":477.759,"text":"二）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．委員"},{"start":496.838,"end":510.386,"text":"刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．"},{"start":526.543,"end":530.628,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等20人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":541.616,"end":555,"text":"二）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖�"},{"start":567.469,"end":595.799,"text":"你對著大法官徽讀施行這個辯論﹖我沒有保證說他有絕對的信心可以捍衛現在超過的74%以上的民意啦你選他你是行政領導你有信心嗎?有信心嗎?我相信大法官應該會斟酌各方面的那個立場我們作為行政我們不方便表示一點但是希望大家對大法官要有信心啦對於有信心是不會徽讀就對了"},{"start":596.647,"end":600.792,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":616.81,"end":622.394,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具 «中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案案件》案。議員黃健豪等19人擬具 «中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案件》案。"},{"start":642.244,"end":644.946,"text":"議員黃健豪等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案〉案"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}