{"error":false,"id":["151232"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151232,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151232","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T09:59:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T10:13:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627cd119d4e8c261a36b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c94e89831f4f6d40dec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:59:10 - 10:13:22","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時59分）謝謝主席，請薛部長還有經濟部連署長。"],["主席：好，請。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。李遠哲說政府騙人，2050淨零不可能，減碳努力不足。部長，你有看到李遠哲昨天的談話嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我稍微有看到新聞，李遠哲院長是我非常敬重的一位國際級……"],["王委員育敏：你覺得他講的是不是真實的？"],["薛部長富盛：我尊重任何人的言論自由。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得他的批判是有道理的，為什麼？我們從415的限電危機來看環境部跟經濟部的作為。我們看到415臺灣差一點就發生了全臺大限電，興達三、四號燃煤機組是備用機組，結果火力全開，燃煤機組火力全開，部長知道這個對於我們的空污影響會有多大嗎？它之所以會變成是備用機組，就是因為它對空污的影響很大，所以它必須除役，結果在415，經濟部一直對外說臺灣不缺電，王美花部長話講得很大聲，在地震過後經濟部話也講得很大聲，說我們的電力供應都沒有問題，結果17個小時，搶救限電大作戰悄悄地發生，全臺灣民眾被蒙在鼓裡，如果不是被揭發出來，大家還不知道臺灣差一點又發生全臺大限電。"],["薛部長富盛：不過給王委員報告……"],["王委員育敏：部長你知道嗎？你知道這一個限電危機……"],["薛部長富盛：我知道，它的備用機組事實上是一、二號機組才是備用機組，本來三、四號就有在運轉，所以並不是把備用機組全部打開，大概不是這樣子。"],["王委員育敏：那它可以這樣子做嗎？它有環保限制你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我想台電應該是會遵照SOP……"],["王委員育敏：作為整個空品管理的單位，作為我們應該要去減碳的單位，環境部部長知道他們在做這件事情嗎？你是什麼時候知道的？你什麼時候知道他們要火力全開？三、四號機組。"],["薛部長富盛：我想我們尊重包括經濟部跟台電……"],["王委員育敏：不是尊重的問題，你知不知道？"],["薛部長富盛：我們是做環境品質的監控，所以對於整個電力的運作，假如他們提供給我們……"],["王委員育敏：那你知道415跟416的AQI，很明顯地416空氣品質就更糟，你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個當然我們……"],["王委員育敏：你們有監控嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有、有，我們的空氣品質……"],["王委員育敏：今天本席要問的就是作為環境部，你是空品的主管機關，你也是減碳負責的單位，當經濟部要採取這些作為的時候，環境部有去阻止嗎？有去限制嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得站在我們的立場，我們會去觀察整個空氣品質的變化，但是假如說……"],["王委員育敏：你們不能只是觀察。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們在全國有布滿大概一萬多點的空品監測站，所以事實上假如王委員到我們的網站去，現在隨時都有這些……"],["王委員育敏：我要問的是你的職權，當李遠哲批判說政府在騙人、減碳是假的的時候，我覺得作為環境部，你們應該要把你們的職權拿出來、用出來，如果你今天對於經濟部，沒有任何可以去加以限制的權力的話，那就是放任啊！經濟部說要火力全開就火力全開，即使有環保限制，突破又怎麼樣？有罰則嗎？要罰嗎？以4月15號到4月16號為例，你看到4月16號，4月16號興達電廠還是火力全開，都到九成以上，環保限制也拿掉了，所以請問興達電廠是要常態化地供電了嗎？我們的經濟部連署長來說明一下。"],["連署長錦漳：我請台電副總說明一下。"],["王委員育敏：政策是你們在訂的，為什麼要台電說明？"],["連署長錦漳：因為這個執行面是那個……我們不是執行。"],["王委員育敏：政策是你們下達的吧？"],["連署長錦漳：是能源署。"],["王委員育敏：能源署今天有來嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：有。"],["王委員育敏：來，組長上來。整個政策都是經濟部訂的，不用通通推給台電，台電只是執行單位。組長，請問415限電，下達興達要火力全開的是你們嗎？"],["陳組長景生：報告委員，首先要澄清一下，415沒有限電。"],["王委員育敏：當然沒有限電，你們在背後做了這麼多，讓這些該環保限制的都火力全開了。"],["陳組長景生：因為調度是要即時調度，所以如果有需要的話，它要在符合環保限制之下來做調度，這個是沒有問題的。"],["王委員育敏：它有符合環保限制嗎？已經突破了環保限制啦！環保限制你有去看高雄的相關法規嗎？它最高可以運轉到多少，你說，興達三號、四號機。"],["陳組長景生：三號、四號機的環保限制，當然就是要符合空污法，也要符合環評的限制沒有錯，但是它跟高雄市政府針對調度的時候可以排放到什麼程度是有一個約定的。"],["王委員育敏：到哪裡啊？你講啊！"],["陳組長景生：我們是不是請台電來詳細說明一下？"],["王委員育敏：我要先問你政策的問題。另外一個，4月16號，你們整個供電充裕，亮綠燈，根本沒有需要動用到興達三、四號機，結果還是火力全開，那有沒有違反規定？"],["陳組長景生：因為這個備轉其實是看每個小時是不一樣的。"],["王委員育敏：所以你是承認4月16號就是有缺電？備轉低於8%以下？"],["陳組長景生：備轉有比較低，但是……"],["王委員育敏：那你們怎麼還呈現綠燈，那是綠燈造假？"],["陳組長景生：因為那個綠燈是在尖峰的那一個點，台電公告……因為它是預測的，它是……"],["王委員育敏：那你經濟部告訴大家，我們現在整體的供電，一直到4月16號是不是還有缺電之虞？備轉低於8%以下有沒有出現過？有，所以興達三、四號機才需要火力全開，運轉到九成多。"],["陳組長景生：尖峰的時候這個預測是沒有備轉太低的，但是因為有時候機組會故障，那備轉的用意其實就是要應付機組故障。"],["王委員育敏：如果按照你這個邏輯，那興達就要常常火力全開了，不用有環保限制了，是不是？一方面告訴大家臺灣不缺電，又把這個燃煤機組原本應該要有環保限制的拿掉，然後又要讓它可以常常運轉，這個邏輯完全不通啊！為什麼不敢清楚地告訴國人，我們現在其實在電力調度上就是有困難？加上昨天桃園、新北有萬戶停電，有這麼巧的事情，就是先出現限電危機，昨天又有停電、跳電的狀況，我們整體電力供應真的沒有問題嗎？地震過後，當然我們的機組有出現一些損害，沒有辦法供電，但是為什麼經濟部要瞞騙國人，一直告訴大家我們是非常充裕的，大家不用怕，都不會有限電，也不會缺電，也不會跳電，結果背後可能就是個謊言。你們這麼捉襟見肘，限電搶救大作戰，累的是誰？累的是台電第一層的人員，我必須坦白這樣講，是不用把罪都推到他們身上，因為錯誤的政策比貪污還要可怕！","我們再來看一點，準閣揆他告訴大家什麼？他說昨天公布了一個我們新的經濟部部長叫郭智輝，他說我們換部長就可以穩定供電，是真的嗎？當你的能源政策不調整、不改變，郭智輝有這麼神，換了他之後，415的情況不會出現，怎麼可能？你現在就是整個備轉不足嘛！不足就是不足，結果你們都對外說謊、欺騙。李遠哲講得非常好，政府都在騙人啦！都在騙人，你能源政策不調整，換部長能保證穩定供電嗎？組長，你可以代表經濟部長回答嗎？可以嗎？換部長就可以保證穩定供電嗎？"],["陳組長景生：我無法回答這個，但是我要報告委員，416的確是變電所的問題，415是因為大潭有跳機的現象，那……"],["王委員育敏：所以都有原因、都有理由，那組長你要跟大家保證說，所以臺灣其實是供電無虞的。"],["陳組長景生：我可以跟大家說……"],["王委員育敏：你還要台積電的柴油發電機火力全開，然後核電機組的柴油火力全開，這個都是加重了我們的空污，你知道嗎？然後我們的環境部其實也不管，任由你們經濟部隨便，反正就說我們電不夠了，所以什麼空污的沒有關係，柴油機組全部上，全部都可以火力全開，這個就是我們現在看到的情況。在這樣的情況底下，加重了我們的空污，又沒有辦法給人民一個穩定的供電，換了一個部長，情況就會改觀，騙誰啊！怎麼可能！怎麼可能！","所以我今天提出這個問題，就是我要呼應李遠哲講的話，政府不能再騙人，腳踏實地，該做的事情到位。為什麼經濟部堅持核電不能用呢？不能研議呢？為什麼？就是你上位錯誤的能源配比，就會導致下面三軍無能，就是統帥無能累死三軍，下面這一些台電的人一天到晚在調頭寸，苦的是他們基層，然後你上面做錯誤的政策，就是這樣子啊！現在就是這樣子啊！為什麼這個是科學的事情，你們要政治成這個樣子？為什麼核能不能用，要違反世界的潮流？莫名其妙到極點！臺灣是地震這麼多的國家，你敢擔保下一次不會再來個地震嗎？我們的能源這麼不穩定……"],["薛部長富盛：所以更不應該用核能。"],["王委員育敏：下一步的情況不是更奇怪嗎？部長，你可以講……"],["薛部長富盛：剛剛王委員你講臺灣地震非常多，所以就更不應該用核電。"],["王委員育敏：我們這次核一、核二、核三有出現問題嗎？是和平那邊出了問題。"],["薛部長富盛：可是假如王委員的邏輯對，那麼你怎麼知道下一次的地震不是在核一、核二那附近呢？"],["王委員育敏：那其他不是更脆弱嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我的意思是這些都是不可預測的風險，核能要延役……"],["王委員育敏：就是因為有你們這些官員這麼地愚蠢，就是固守這樣子的一個……"],["薛部長富盛：這個跟官員沒有關係。王委員，我覺得我們理性來看……"],["王委員育敏：墨守成規！"],["薛部長富盛：這個絕對不是世界的趨勢啦！"],["王委員育敏：不是世界的趨勢？"],["薛部長富盛：絕對不是世界的趨勢啦！"],["王委員育敏：你知道有多少國家還在用核能嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有啊，因為他們國家的國情跟臺灣不一樣，他們通常都是土地比較大、核廢料處理沒有問題、地震……"],["王委員育敏：日本跟臺灣的國情不一樣嗎？日本有沒有用？"],["薛部長富盛：日本並沒有很多啊！"],["王委員育敏：有在用啊！他們有非核政策嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：他們之前有，所以它也……"],["王委員育敏：他們現在沒有啦！因為他們已經得到教訓了，天然氣非常昂貴啊！"],["薛部長富盛：這個跟所謂台灣的……"],["王委員育敏：所以看看我們的官員，如果存在這麼墨守成規的想法，當然我們現在的能源政策再換十個部長也是一樣。我再強調一次，能源政策不調整，換十個部長也一樣，我不曉得為什麼蔡政府墨守成規到如此這般的田地，這個是令人非常遺憾的事情。","接下來，有關限塑政策，部長，你的限塑政策根本就是破功，內銷量不減反增，2050年全面限用根本就做不到，你們怎麼交代？這個部分，你們要怎麼交代？"],["薛部長富盛：任何的政策一定要有一個目標規劃……"],["王委員育敏：是啊！"],["薛部長富盛：王委員應該也知道啦！我們總不能把目標都訂很低，很容易達到，我們是要訂一些有挑戰性，如同王委員講的，我們努力去做就對了。"],["王委員育敏：當然，我們讓環保署升格成環境部，就是要鞭策你們，給你們更多的資源跟人，就是你們要去達到啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們來努力。"],["王委員育敏：但是現在大家看到的情況是你們沒有作為。剛剛前面已經好幾位委員講了，你們現在的限塑政策，看起來好像遇到瓶頸，不敢再去擴大實施，也沒有訂出一個很具體可以減塑的目標，所以沒有成效。"],["薛部長富盛：有啊！"],["王委員育敏：2020年一直到現在都還是居高不下。「有」的成效是什麼？那就是自己訂的標準太低啊！"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！所以王委員，我們訂得高一點的標準就是希望我們可以朝那個方向努力，大家要共同來努力，也不是今天光環境部……"],["王委員育敏：社會支持環保署升格成環境部，就是要求你們做出對於環境更大的貢獻。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們會來努力。"],["王委員育敏：在永續、在減碳都應該要去達成。"],["薛部長富盛：會，我們會來努力。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分，我覺得環境部到目前為止成績不及格，沒有達到民眾的期待。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：接下來我們請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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不用通通推給台電 台電只是執行單位請問415限電 組長 這個下達、新達要火力全開的是你們嗎?當然沒有限電 你們在背後做了這麼多 讓這一些該環保限制的都火力全開了"},{"start":300.273,"end":323.792,"text":"是他現在是就是說他因為調度是要及時調度啦所以如果有需要的話他是他要在符合環保限制之下來做調度的這個是沒有問題的他有符合環保限制嗎已經突破了環保限制啦環保限制你有去看高雄的相關的法規嗎他可以他最高可以運轉到多少你說"},{"start":325.543,"end":349.575,"text":"新打3號4號機3號4號機它的環保限制當然就是要符合空污法也要符合那個環評的限制是沒有錯但是它跟高雄市政府是有針對這個調度時候的可以做這個排放可以到什麼程度是有一個約定的到哪裡啊你講我們是不是請那個台電來詳細的說明一下"},{"start":350.615,"end":363.262,"text":"我要先問你政策的問題另外一個4月16號4月16號你們的整個供電充裕亮綠燈根本沒有需要動用到新打三次結果還是火力全開那有沒有違反規定因為這個備轉其實是看每個小時是不一樣的所以你是承認4月16號就是有缺電喔備轉低於8%以下囉"},{"start":378.305,"end":381.128,"text":"那你經濟部告訴大家我們現在整體的供電一直到4月16號是不是還有這個缺電之雨?"},{"start":398.072,"end":424.998,"text":"被轉低於8%以下有沒有出現過?有?所以你的新達34才需要火力全開運轉到9成多?監風的時候這個預測是沒有到是沒有被轉太低的啦但是呢因為有時候基礎會故障那被轉的用意其實就是要應付基礎故障那如果按照你這個邏輯那新達就要常常火力全開了不用有環保限制了是不是?"},{"start":426.226,"end":452.016,"text":"那一方面又告訴大家說臺灣不缺電臺灣不缺電又把這一個燃煤機組原本應該要有環保限制的又要拿掉然後要讓它可以長長運轉這個邏輯完全不通啊為什麼不敢清楚的告訴國人我們現在其實在電力調度上就是有困難加上昨天桃園新北有萬戶停電有這麼巧的事情"},{"start":452.876,"end":467.683,"text":"就是先限電出現限電危機昨天又有停電的狀況跳電那真的我們整體電力供應沒有問題嗎地震過後當然我們現在機組有一些有出現一些損害"},{"start":468.863,"end":483.304,"text":"沒有辦法供電但是為什麼經濟部要瞞騙國人一直告訴大家說我們是非常充裕的大家不用怕都不會不會有限電也不會缺電也不會跳電結果背後可能就是個謊言啊你們這麼捉襟見肘"},{"start":486.334,"end":498.29,"text":"限電搶救大作戰累的是誰?累的是台電第一層的人員我必須坦白這樣講是不用把罪都推到他們身上因為錯誤的政策比貪污還要可怕我們再來看一點"},{"start":499.969,"end":522.26,"text":"準格奎告訴大家什麼他說昨天公布了一個我們新的經濟部部長叫郭志輝他說我們換部長就可以穩定供電是真的嗎當你的能源政策不調整不改變郭志輝有這麼神換了他之後415的情況不會出現怎麼可能"},{"start":525.168,"end":545.663,"text":"你現在就是你整個的備轉的不足嘛不足就是不足嘛結果你們都對外說謊欺騙李遠哲講得非常好啊政府都在騙人啊都在騙人你能源政策不調整換部長能保證穩定供電嗎組長你可以代表經濟部長回答嗎可以嗎換部長就可以保證穩定供電來講"},{"start":548.801,"end":566.862,"text":"我無法回答這個但是我要報告委員416的確那個是便電所的問題那415是因為那個大潭有跳機的現象所以都有原因都有理由那組長你要跟大家保證說所以台灣其實是供電無雨的"},{"start":568.212,"end":593.777,"text":"那我可以跟大家說你還要台積電的柴油發電機火力全開然後核電機組的柴油火力全開這個都是加重了我們的空污你知道嗎然後我們的環境部其實也不管任由你們經濟部隨便反正就說我們電不夠了所以什麼空污的沒有關係啊柴油機組全部上全部都可以火力全開這個就是我們現在看到的情況"},{"start":595.057,"end":621.49,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下加重了我們的空污又沒有辦法給人民一個穩定的供電換了一個部長情況就會改觀騙誰啊怎麼可能怎麼可能所以我今天提出這個問題就是我要呼應議員者講的話政府不能再騙人腳踏實地該做的事情到位為什麼經濟部堅持核電不能用呢不能研議呢為什麼"},{"start":623.049,"end":628.371,"text":"就是你尚未錯誤的能源配比你就會導致下面三軍無能就是統帥無能類似三軍就是下面這些台電的人一天到晚在掉頭寸苦的是他們基層然後你上面做錯誤的政策就是這樣子現在就是這樣子"},{"start":644.662,"end":656.776,"text":"為什麼這個是科學的事情你們要政治成這個為什麼核能不能用要違反世界的潮流莫名其妙到幾點臺灣是地震這麼多的國家你敢擔保下一次不會再來個地震嗎然後我們的能源這麼的不穩定那下一步的情況不是更奇怪嗎"},{"start":665.919,"end":680.735,"text":"部長你可以講剛剛這個王委員你講台灣地震非常多啊所以就更不應該用核電我們這一次的核一、核二、核三有出現問題嗎是和平那邊出了問題啊可是表王委員的邏輯對那你怎麼知道我下一次的地震不是在"},{"start":681.576,"end":703.311,"text":"和一和二那附近呢?我的意思是這些都是不可預測的風險就是因為有你們這些官員就是這麼的愚蠢就是固守這樣子的一個末手成規末手成規不是世界的趨勢絕對不是世界的趨勢你知道有多少國家在用核能嗎?"},{"start":703.971,"end":718.967,"text":"有阿因為他們國家的國情跟台灣不一樣他們通常都是這個土地也比較大核廢料處理沒有問題日本跟台灣的國情不一樣嗎?日本有沒有用?日本並沒有很多阿有在用嗎?他們有非核政策嗎?他們之前有"},{"start":721.598,"end":739.647,"text":"他們現在沒有啦 因為他們已經得到教訓啦 天然氣非常昂貴啊 所以看看我們的官員 若存在這麼破手成規的一個想法當然我們現在能源政策 再換10個部長也是一樣 能源政策不調整 我再強調一次 能源政策不調整 換10個部長也一樣"},{"start":742.952,"end":761.904,"text":"我覺得我不曉得為什麼蔡政府固墨守成規到如此這般的田地這個是令人非常遺憾的事情接下來這個限塑政策就是部長你的限塑政策根本就是破功內銷量不減反增2050全面限用根本就做不到"},{"start":763.245,"end":788.789,"text":"你怎麼交代?這個部分你們要怎麼交代?我想任何的政策它一定要有一個目標規劃王委員應該也知道我們總不能把目標都定得很低很容易達到我們是要定一些有挑戰性當然我們讓環保署升格成環境部就是要鞭策你們給你們更多的資源跟人就是你們要去達到啊是我們來努力"},{"start":790.31,"end":815.647,"text":"但是現在大家看到的情況是你們沒有作為啊剛剛前面已經好幾位委員講了就是你們現在的限塑政策看起來好像遇到瓶頸然後不敢再去擴大實施也沒有訂出一個很具體的可以減塑的目標所以沒有成效啊2020一直到現在都還是居高不下有的成效是什麼那就是自己訂的標準太低啊"},{"start":816.602,"end":843.62,"text":"對阿所以王育敏我們訂了高一點的標準就是希望我們可以找那個方向來努力那大家要共同來努力啦今天社會支持環保署升格成環境部就是要求你們做出更大的對於環境更大的貢獻再永續再減碳都應該要去達成那這個部分我覺得環境部到目前為止成績不及格沒有達到民眾的期待好謝謝王育敏指教謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}