{"error":false,"id":["151243"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151243,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151243","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T10:24:56+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T10:35:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016276ab0773503b06c8ff65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c9411ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:24:56 - 10:35:47","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時25分）先請次長。"],["主席：麻煩蔡次長。"],["林委員思銘：副秘書長也一起。","次長好。我想先就教次長，這一次對於刑法第二百八十六條的修正，為什麼今天這麼多委員要提這個修正案？這個背景，我想你大概也知道，最重要就是剴剴事件，所以普遍社會上，現在大家對於這種凌虐幼童，不管他是十二歲以下或者六歲以下，這種年齡層的這些被害人，社會上普遍認為以現在的刑法第二百八十六條只對凌虐十八歲以下之人，我們特別把這部分加以處罰，而沒有去區分說他的犯罪客體，更小的小孩是不是要更加重？當然今天有很多的版本出來，剛才莊瑞雄委員也對很多委員的版本有提出他的高見。但是我想我還是要請教，不管是次長也好還是副秘書長也好，您認為現行第二百八十六條的刑法規定，有必要補強嗎？針對我剛才提到有關凌虐幼童這一部分，我們有必要再做刑事政策的補強考量嗎？政策上要如何來加強？先請次長簡單回答。"],["蔡次長碧仲：108年對於凌虐致重傷，就已經有到十年以上有期徒刑。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["蔡次長碧仲：因為凌虐致重傷五年以上、十二年以下，凌虐致死的話就是無期徒刑或者是十二年以上的有期徒刑。我跟委員報告，今天發生一個具體的案件，他凌虐他了，致重傷，依照他的情節就可以量處到十二年，這個比一般的致重傷都要重，如果把他凌虐死掉的話，就像目前這個具體案例，他可以判到十二年以上，甚至可以量處無期徒刑，所以……"],["林委員思銘：所以你認為刑度在現行的刑法……"],["蔡次長碧仲：現行法只要善用……"],["林委員思銘：也就是說對致重傷以及致死有相關的一個加重的處罰規定？"],["蔡次長碧仲：對，我也不避諱說這是法官量刑，應該要尊重，我們一再在大院裡面大聲疾呼。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["蔡次長碧仲：不要從最低法定刑開始量，你要從中間五年以上，十二年以下，你從中間去量……"],["林委員思銘：次長，您講的我都瞭解，我們都學法律，你講的，我都知道你的意思。"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["林委員思銘：反正你是認為現行的刑法已經對於這種加重結果犯，凌虐造成死亡或者致重傷的結果都有加重的規定。"],["蔡次長碧仲：跟委員報告，我也會認同委員說可以再加重，但是問題就是他再加重……"],["林委員思銘：是，就立法政策上要怎麼樣來……因為現在發生這些事件，就是說當然已經到了凌虐致死或致重傷，這個就很嚴重了啦！"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["林委員思銘：我現在問你的是，因為現在規定是十八歲，是不是對於六歲以下根本沒有抗拒能力的這些幼童，如果你是對這種孩子下手的話就要加重……"],["蔡次長碧仲：可以加重，可以。"],["林委員思銘：他沒有到死亡，沒有到重傷。"],["蔡次長碧仲：我瞭解，可以加重。"],["林委員思銘：這種情況，我們在立法例上面、刑事政策上面，是不是要做加重？"],["蔡次長碧仲：加重，我同意，對這個我不反對。"],["林委員思銘：對嘛！所以這個要加重。請問副秘書長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然第二百八十六條現在是針對十八歲以下，十八歲以下有三歲、有十七歲。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剛剛委員講說這中間應該要有一些區隔。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：要斟酌他有沒有抵抗的能力，他的支持程度到哪裡，做一些區隔，我相信這個刑事政策應該都是大院的職權，我們司法院大概不會有意見，而且區別地比較精密一點的話，法官將來在裁量的時候也會更有一些遵循……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以這部分做這樣一個修法是可行的啦？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然是大院的職權，只是上次剛好……"],["林委員思銘：沒關係，我想這部分如果兩位也肯定這樣一個見解，未來我們在討論的時候，我會提出這方面的修正動議。另外，對於凌虐幼童這種事件，我們看到一種情況，就是近五年來因為觸犯刑法第二百八十六條而被起訴或者被判刑的案件很少很少，我想請問一下，法務部或者司法院有沒有統計過這類型因為觸犯刑法第二百八十六條而被起訴的案件有多少？被判刑有罪的案件又有多少？有沒有做過統計？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有，本部有做統計。"],["林委員思銘：是，起訴幾件？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我們從108年開始，那時候是起訴了6件，109年是15件，110年是28件，111年是39件，112年是38件，113年一到二月是17件。"],["林委員思銘：這樣統計全部多少？"],["蔡次長碧仲：全部114件。"],["林委員思銘：總共五年合計，統計五年嘛！"],["蔡次長碧仲：五年114件。"],["林委員思銘：判決有罪的呢？"],["蔡次長碧仲：114人。"],["林委員思銘：好，114件有被起訴。"],["蔡次長碧仲：判決有罪的部分，量刑的情形跟委員報告……"],["林委員思銘：起訴後被判有罪、成立有罪的有幾件，你有統計嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：108年以來有48人確定，1件無罪。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以起訴大部分還是被判有罪？"],["蔡次長碧仲：幾乎，只有1件……"],["林委員思銘：秘書長的數據一樣嗎？就是你手頭上數據，檢察官起訴後被判有罪有多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們這邊在108年科刑有罪判決5件，109年5件，110年就是十幾件，111年有二十幾件，112年有十幾件，大致上落差不大。"],["林委員思銘：判決也是將近100件。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：判決有罪的。"],["林委員思銘：這五年有罪大概100件。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：一百多件。"],["林委員思銘：次長、秘書長，我是講真的，你認為那麼少嗎？這種案件，虐兒事件然後被起訴，真正的被發掘的有那麼少嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：那當然，就是黑數很多。"],["林委員思銘：黑數很多嘛！"],["蔡次長碧仲：那當然，瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：所以這部分，你們有統計啦，我現在請衛福部、教育部。請問衛福部，你們有統計嗎？針對法院判決，還有檢察官起訴的案件，案件多少？你們有做過數字的統計嗎？"],["郭副司長彩榕：這個部分，我們是有受理通報的統計，但這個案子如果後續進入到刑事偵查這邊，檢察官跟法院不一定會回報到我們這邊來，但我們只是接受人民的通報，我們會有……"],["林委員思銘：所以你們沒有主動去跟司法院或者跟法務部要資料、要相關數據來做統計，就是判決確定的案件有多少？你們都沒有做統計？"],["郭副司長彩榕：我們會有一期一期的統計，三個月的季報這個部分會有。"],["林委員思銘：有吧？我想會後你把你的統計數字提供給本席，你請回。"],["郭副司長彩榕：好。"],["林委員思銘：請問教育部，教育部有沒有？"],["葉組長信村：我們教育部有校安通報的統計。"],["林委員思銘：不是，我是說對法院的司法判決，還有檢察官起訴的案件有多少？你們有沒有做過統計？這個類型、這種虐兒事件到底發生了幾件？被判決幾件？你們教育部難道不用統計嗎？"],["葉組長信村：跟委員報告，因為我們沒有接獲法院的通知，當然，委員的指導，我們會來做……"],["林委員思銘：所以教育部都沒有做統計？"],["葉組長信村：是，目前沒有。"],["林委員思銘：這不是你們的業務嗎？不是你的業務嗎？"],["葉組長信村：委員，您說……"],["林委員思銘：校園安全防治這個工作，像這種統計數字，你不用去查嗎？你不用去瞭解嗎？你如何去瞭解現在社會上發生這麼多虐兒事件、虐童事件，這些數據你不用去調查嗎？"],["葉組長信村：發生的時候，我們會接獲校安通報。"],["林委員思銘：但最後的統計你要去做啊，否則你如何去建置這些社會安全網呢？我想教育部要加強了，這部分真的要加強了。"],["葉組長信村：好。"],["林委員思銘：不管法務部或司法院都是案子最後的處理、制裁機關，防制機關還是在衛福部以及教育部，所以我希望你們能夠做出相關的數字統計，去瞭解為什麼會有這麼多這種案子發生，並且好好檢討，建置出很好的安全網，好不好？因為時間關係，以後我再就其他問題就教，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請吳委員思瑤發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.72096875,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.70346875,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.90159375,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.58909375,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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:380.808,"text":"有本部有做統計是起訴幾件我們這個以這個我們從一百零八零開始那時候的話是起訴了一個六件一百零九是十五件一百一十是二十八件一百一十一年是三十九件一百一十二年是三十八件一百一十三年一到兩月是十七件"},{"start":383.677,"end":389.2,"text":"統計全部多少?總共5年合計統計5年114件 判決有罪的部分量刑的情形分為報告"},{"start":411.496,"end":431.349,"text":"一﹐一百零八年以來有四十八人確定了。四十八。要一件無罪。所以起訴大部分還是被判有罪?那民進黨的數據一樣嗎?就是你手上的數據是假官起訴之後被判有罪的有多少?"},{"start":432.179,"end":447.787,"text":"三）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二"},{"start":460.805,"end":480.843,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案案 案件,涅槃事件,然後被起訴,真的被發掘的那麼少嗎?那當然啦,這是黑訴很多嘛。那當然。所以這部分,你們有統計啦,我現在請衛福部教育部,衛福部,你們衛福部有統計嗎?"},{"start":483.885,"end":487.908,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會"},{"start":501.5,"end":513.332,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議等19人擬具 «中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議等19人擬具"},{"start":524.121,"end":524.321,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":543.405,"end":560.074,"text":"我們教育部有銷案通報的統計不是我說對法院司法判決還有檢察官起訴的案件有多少你們有沒有做過統計這類行政戀兒事件到底發生了幾件被判決幾件你們教育部難道不用統計嗎"},{"start":561.615,"end":567.999,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":579.709,"end":586.612,"text":"條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":607.062,"end":607.202,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":611.414,"end":611.874,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":641.374,"end":644.238,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}