{"error":false,"id":["151244"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151244,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151244","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T10:29:06+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T10:40:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c5c2efa2c8c4eaf0cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c9419ee2b2e751d37cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:29:06 - 10:40:47","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時29分）我們請金管會黃主委，還有經濟部陳次長。"],["主席：有請黃主委、陳政次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委好，次長好。我在立法院的第一次質詢就質詢了山道猴子，就質詢了融資公司，就質詢了今天這樣的亂象只是越來越明顯，我想問一下經濟部，金管會一直認為融資公司不是他的業務，是不是你的業務？"],["陳次長正祺：經濟部主管的法律裡面，在消費者保護的部分，我們會提……"],["黃委員珊珊：你只管消費者保護，所以融資公司它所融資的這些相關的業務是歸誰管？不歸你管？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們現在講融資，就我的瞭解，它是一種借貸行為，不是銀行……"],["黃委員珊珊：經濟部主管公司法，一般公司都是你管嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些融資公司在業務範圍裡面就寫融資，對吧？"],["陳次長正祺：目前我們沒有融資公司這個類別。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長還有主委，在民國94年，黃天牧主委以前在保險局時的老長官叫做龔照勝，他就提了融資公司專法，96、97年度有融資公司法草案進入立法院，所以融資公司從那個時候到現在都沒有人管，可以這樣說嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：的確這個議題是一直沒有得到……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是我們延宕了20年的融資公司法沒有人管，也沒有人要管，主委，我知道你的困難，因為你只管上市櫃公司，所以這三家你可以管得到，你在我第一次的質詢後，你告訴我，你要找他們喝咖啡，你也找了他們喝咖啡，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您的第一次質詢我記得很清楚，你說至少你要給我最低限度，要開始做一些事。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，這是我很遺憾的，我想這20年來立法院很多立法委員也都提過，所以今天的問題是融資租賃公司為什麼業務會成長到現在，我想我們大家都很清楚原因，第一個就是某些程度銀行的貸款不是那麼容易取得，尤其是新創，甚至是小額，所以才會有這麼多的融資公司不斷的竄起；第二個，這些大公司，尤其是這三家上市櫃公司，都是用租賃的方式來做相關的融資，但是更多的不肖業者除了先買後付（BNPL）之外，其實現在最嚴重的就是這些大公司也搞所謂的超貸，就是機車超貸，是假租賃、真信貸還有假商品、真信貸，所以現在的問題就是大公司、小公司都做一樣的事情，這才是我們今天社會亂象的來源。曾經有一個社工講得很清楚，他說以前都是欠銀行錢來協商，在109年以後全部都是機車貸、汽車貸，連手機都可以貸，商品更不要講了。這些新型態的負債現在是幾十萬，一個破機車可以借到幾十萬，甚至中古車可以借到上百萬，這已經是不值錢的東西，他們用假租賃、真信貸的方式，造成了今天有很多被稱為「山道猴子」的被害人。經濟部次長，我們希望520以後你還能留任，所以經濟部的態度是什麼？你們希不希望立專法？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，第一個，委員剛剛提到超過物品價值的這種融資跟借貸，這已經在邊緣上，可以視為已經有詐騙的嫌疑，遇到這種重利罪……"],["黃委員珊珊：一定要到詐騙的程度嗎？詐騙之前呢？誰來管呢？"],["陳次長正祺：還沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在就是沒人管啦！兩位，我的問題就是政府的立場支不支持立專法？因為金管會只能管上市櫃公司，大的公司它可以管，可是小的公司管不了。第二個，小的公司經濟部也不管，現在就叫做沒人管的三不管地帶。主委，雖然你要卸任了，我想問你，你願不願意支持立專法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，就是因為我將要離開，所以我不太適合對未來主委所要決定的事情去表示意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是您提到的那個內部融資標準第6頁，我們今天有特別說明會改進。"],["黃委員珊珊：專法的法案我們已經寫好了，不管主委你在不在任，我相信這在立法院本屆會期會是一個重中之重的法案，我們也希望行政部門提出你們的對案，尤其是經濟部管不了、金管會不想管的東西，我們希望有人可以站出來管。第二個部分，現在的問題在於說剛剛講的那三大家有6,700億的業務，但是我上次也質詢過，湊起來有將近100億的呆帳，雖然不單單都是這些所謂的小額信貸，但是它有這麼多的呆帳，表示它還是很賺錢。重點是現在的問題是有很多地下錢莊改以租賃公司為名，開始做合法的地下錢莊，讓租賃公司成為有牌的地下錢莊，還可以去執行暴力討債，甚至到法院做相關的強制執行。主委，到目前為止公股行庫到底有多少家在中國成立融資公司？"],["黃主任委員天牧：關於這個數字，我們大概有十幾家金融機構轉投資。"],["黃委員珊珊：十幾家？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺企銀、第一金、華南金、合庫金都有在大陸成立融資公司，對嗎？時間暫停，請銀行局說明。"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該都有，局長要不要來說明一下？"],["主席：要請公股銀行的董事長嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：公股銀行的董事長。"],["主席：剛剛是臺企銀。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺企銀、第一金、華南金跟合庫金。"],["主席：來，請三位被點名到的公股銀行的董事長上臺備詢。"],["黃委員珊珊：各位董事長，我們在馬政府時代因為跟兩岸簽有金融的MOU，所以我們的公股行庫都有在中國大陸設立所謂的融資租賃公司，是嗎？都有，有賺錢嗎？都有賺錢，現在還在做嗎？還在做。到目前為止，好像中國大陸2023年狀況不太好，是嗎？但是我知道的是第一金的一銀租賃公司一年的成長率還是超過3%，董事長，是嗎？"],["主席：請邱董事長。"],["黃委員珊珊：時間暫停。"],["邱董事長月琴：報告委員，事實上，目前我們租賃公司的暴險也是放在整個AI822的控管之中。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以其實在中國大陸我們還是按照當地的法規有成立租賃公司，幾位董事長，現在中國大陸其實對租賃融資業有一個專業的辦法，也就是金融租賃公司管理辦法，還有融資租賃公司監督管理暫行辦法，它其實是由中央來監管的。至少到目前為止，就像我剛剛講的，臺灣沒人管，經濟部也管不了，在韓國有金融監督院、新加坡有金融管理局、印尼有金融服務管理局，中國是銀保監會，柬埔寨是國家銀行，也就是說，這些國家到目前為止，包括德國、日本，都是由中央金融監理機關來做的。黃主委，我在這邊要說的是，雖然你要卸任，但是我要說全世界各地都是由中央主管機關來監管相關的融資業務，我想臺灣也不可以例外。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以各位能不能給金管會一個建議，就是在臺灣的融資公司是不是也應該像在中國大陸這樣至少有一個監管機制？至少你們在大陸正常做生意可以正常賺到錢，也不會有這些問題，希望是啦！好不好？他山之石，可以攻錯，我們希望全世界都在做的事，臺灣不能獨漏，而且我們自己也在做同樣的事，連公營行庫都在做一樣的事，但是我們自己放下了這些管理的權限，我覺得非常可惜。","最後就是現在租賃業他們有幾個問題，第一個就是他們也想要好好的授信，但是他們取不太到聯徵中心的資料；第二個是他們也沒有互相的信用保險機構，所以他們也是有很高的暴險，另外就是主管機關對他們沒有支持、也沒有輔導，所以想要好好正常做租賃業的又不行。這個問題就回到經濟部了，次長，根據我們的公司法，公司的資金是不可以貸與股東或者是任何人，對吧？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這些融資公司可以登記這個業務，又可以低於所謂資本額的多少，它就可以融資。"],["陳次長正祺：淨值的40%。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，淨值的40%，所以他們才會發明了假商品交易、真信貸還有假租賃、真信貸，因為有這個限制，也就是說，我們在管理上面的確是讓這些本來就是做融資的公司或者是企業用這個來規避相關的法規，這也是經濟部一直知道但是又沒辦法管理的，是嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：我們如果發現是屬於違法行為的話，當然我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：你送過多少案子？"],["陳次長正祺：我們送過很多協處的案子，通常都是用租賃……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以送過多少案子？"],["陳次長正祺：一百多件。"],["黃委員珊珊：在多久的時間內送一百多件？是一年送一百多件？"],["蘇署長文玲：我們協處的案子一年大概一百多件。"],["黃委員珊珊：一年一百多件，都送了，有判刑嗎？"],["蘇署長文玲：一百多件是我們協處的，不是送檢調的。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是送檢調的，所以次長你說他有違法，然後你送到哪？"],["蘇署長文玲：那兩個狀況……"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我剛剛回應委員的問題裡面涉及到假租賃、真借貸，這個屬於違法行為，但是如果是因為借貸產生的借貸爭議、消費爭議，那我們介入協處。"],["黃委員珊珊：協處，所以你沒有移送過任何一件？"],["陳次長正祺：這個我們會後去查證一下再回復委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以還是回到我講的，如果你管不了、你也管不到，你也沒辦法管，就麻煩訂專法。我們今天有個臨時提案，等一下要請召委來裁示，主要就是希望行政單位正視這個問題，能夠訂出行政院版本的融資租賃專法，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢。","接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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經濟部我想問一下金管會一直認為融資公司不是他的業務是不是你的業務"},{"start":32.09,"end":33.791,"text":"你只管消費者保護所以融資公司他所融資的這些相關的業務是歸誰管?不歸你管?"},{"start":45.765,"end":66.547,"text":"報告委員我們現在講融資就我的了解他是一種借貸行為所以經濟部主管公司法嘛一般公司都是你管是所以這些融資公司他在業務範圍裡面就寫融資對吧他通常目前我們沒有融資公司這個類別所以部長"},{"start":67.892,"end":68.092,"text":"可以這樣說嗎?兩位"},{"start":95.628,"end":116.526,"text":"的確這個議題是一直沒有得到...也就是我們延宕了20年的融資公司法沒有人管也沒有人要管那剛剛主委我知道你的困難因為你只管上市櫃公司所以這三家你可以管得到所以我在第一次的質詢後你告訴我你要找他們喝咖啡你也找了他們喝咖啡對吧"},{"start":117.467,"end":145.642,"text":"黃主任委員您第一次執行我記得很清楚你說至少你要給我最低限度要開始做一些事是的所以這是我很遺憾這20年我想立法院很多立法委員也都提過所以今天的問題是融資租賃公司為什麼業務會成長到現在我想原因我們大家都很清楚第一個就是某些程度銀行貸款不是那麼容易取得尤其是新創甚至是小額所以才會有這麼多的融資公司不斷地竄起"},{"start":146.843,"end":158.503,"text":"二、這些大公司尤其是三家上市櫃公司他都是用租賃的方式來做相關的融資但是更多的不肖業者他除了"},{"start":159.485,"end":184.904,"text":"BNPL先買後付之外其實現在最嚴重的就是這些大公司也搞這些所謂的超貸機車超貸假租賃徵信貸假商品徵信貸所以現在的問題就是大公司小公司都做一樣的事情這才是我們今天社會亂象的來源也就是說曾經有個社工講得很清楚他說以前都是欠銀行錢來協商"},{"start":187.885,"end":212.77,"text":"109年以後全部都是機車貸、汽車貸、手機都可以貸商品更不要講這些新型態的負債現在幾十萬一個破機車可以借到幾十萬甚至中古車可以借到上百萬這已經是不值錢的東西它用假租賃徵信貸的方式造成了今天很多的山倒猴子的被害人"},{"start":213.47,"end":222.608,"text":"所以經濟部次長雖然你應該至少我們希望520你還能留任所以經濟部的態度是什麼你們需不需要立專法"},{"start":223.769,"end":247.265,"text":"外委員第一個委員您剛提到這個超過物品的價值的這種融資跟借貸那這有已經在邊緣上可以視為它已經有這個詐騙的嫌疑遇到這種一定要到詐騙的程度嗎詐騙之前誰來管呢現在就沒人管啊兩位我的問題就是政府的立場支不支持立專法"},{"start":248.166,"end":257.177,"text":"因為金管會只能管上市櫃,大的公司他可以管,小的公司管不了。第二個,小的公司經濟部也不管,現在就叫做沒人管的三不管地帶。"},{"start":258.157,"end":265.805,"text":"主委,雖然您要卸任,我想問您,您願不願意支持立專法?專法的法案我們已經寫好了,我們也希望"},{"start":279.62,"end":296.196,"text":"同樣的不管主任你再不在任我想這個都要成為將來尤其在本屆的立法院我相信會是一個重中之重的法案我們也希望行政部門應該提出你們的對岸尤其是經濟部管不了儘管會不想管的東西我們希望有人可以站出來管"},{"start":296.917,"end":314.859,"text":"第二個部分現在的問題在於說剛剛講到三大家三大家有6700億的業務幾乎是業務但是我上次有質詢過他將近湊起來有100億的貸帳雖然不單單都是這些所謂的小額信貸但是他有這麼多的貸帳表示他還是很賺錢"},{"start":316.201,"end":341.486,"text":"重點是在於接下來現在很多的問題是地下錢莊改以租賃公司為名開始做合法的地下錢莊讓租賃公司成為有牌的地下錢莊還可以去執行包括暴力討債然後甚至到法院可以做相關的強制執行那最嚴重的是我希望的是"},{"start":342.466,"end":363.432,"text":"我們目前為止公股行庫到底有多少家在中國成立融資公司主委這個我們說是我們可以有一個金融機構轉投資大概十幾家時間暫停十幾家十幾家對台企銀第一金跟華南金、核庫金都有在大陸成立融資公司對嗎時間暫停應該都有局長你要不要來說明一下要請公股銀行的"},{"start":369.191,"end":379.976,"text":"公股銀行的董事長剛剛是臺企銀臺企銀、第一金、華南金、和平金來,請三位被點名到了公股銀行的董事長上臺備選"},{"start":394.195,"end":415.171,"text":"各位董事長,我們在馬政府時代因為跟兩岸簽有金融的MOU,所以我們的公務武漢庫都有在中國大陸設立所謂的融資主領公司是嗎?都有。有賺錢嗎?都有賺錢。現在還在做嗎?還在做。那目前為止好像中國大陸2023年狀況不太好是嗎?"},{"start":418.24,"end":446.762,"text":"但是我知道的是第一金第一金的一營租賃公司一年的成長率還是超過3%是嗎 董事長第一金確實 董事長時間暫停喔報告委員那目前呢 事實上我們的整個租賃公司的曝險也是放在整個AI82控管之中啦所以其實在中國大陸我們還是按照當地的法規有成立租賃公司幾位董事長"},{"start":447.603,"end":466.525,"text":"我們現在中國大陸他其實租賃融資業有一個專業的辦法也就是金融租賃公司管理辦法還有融資租賃公司監理監督管理戰型辦法他其實是由中央來監管的那在至少目前為止台灣"},{"start":471.905,"end":492.504,"text":"在韓國有金融監督院新加坡金融管理局印尼金融服務管理局中國市銀保監會柬埔寨是國家銀行也就是說在這些國家目前為止包括德國、日本都是由中央金融監理機關來做的所以黃主委我在這邊說的是"},{"start":494.245,"end":517.55,"text":"雖然你要卸任但是我要說全世界各地都有中央主管機關來做監管相關的融資業務而且台灣也不可以例外了解謝謝委員是所以各位你們能不能給金管會一個建議說在台灣的融資公司是不是也應該像在中國大陸這樣他至少有一個監管機制目前為止"},{"start":518.871,"end":546.582,"text":"至少你們在大陸正常做生意可以正常賺到錢也不會有這些問題希望是啦好不好這是我希望說既然他山之石可以攻錯我們希望全世界都在做的事台灣不能獨露而且我們自己也在做同樣的事我們公營、航庫都在做一樣的事但是我們自己放下了這些管理的權限我覺得非常可惜最後就是"},{"start":548.289,"end":575.818,"text":"現在租賃業他們有幾個問題第一個就是他們也想要好好的受信但是他們取不太到聯徵中心的資料第二個是他們沒有互相的信用保險的機構所以他們也是很高的曝險另外就是主管機關對他們也沒有支持也沒有輔導所以正常想要好好做租賃業的又不行回到問題就回到經濟部了"},{"start":577.443,"end":604.399,"text":"市長我們的公司法公司的資金是不可以待於股東或者是任何人的對吧是所以他們這些融資公司又可以登記這個業務又可以低於他的所謂資本額的多少他就可以融資40%禁止40%對禁止40%所以他們才會發明了一個叫做假信貸假商品交易徵信貸假租賃徵信貸"},{"start":607.06,"end":624.813,"text":"因為有這個限制也就是說我們的管理上面的確是讓公司或者是這些企業他本來就是做融資的可是他用這個來規避相關的法規這也是經濟部一直知道但是又沒辦法管理的是嗎"},{"start":626.502,"end":644.978,"text":"我們如果發現的話是屬於違法行為的話當然你送過多少案子我們送過很多協處的案子通常都是用租賃所以送過多少案子一百多件一百多件多久收一百多件一年收一百多件我們協處的案子一年大概一百多件"},{"start":645.458,"end":674.543,"text":"一年一百多件都送了,有判刑嗎?不是,一百多件是我們協處的,不是送檢調的。不是送檢調,所以次長你說他有違法,然後你說那哪?報告委員,我剛指的跟回應委員的問題裡面涉及到假租賃,真借貸,這個是屬於違法行為。但是如果是因為借貸產生的這個借貸爭議、消費爭議,那我們介入協處。協處,所以你沒有移送過任何一件?"},{"start":675.697,"end":675.977,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}