{"error":false,"id":["151258"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151258,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151258","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T10:51:01+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T11:05:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627394d711c84b909d4068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94097bac15eae8056a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:51:01 - 11:05:23","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":179,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。任期將屆，但是軍人就是軍人，一輩子的工作。我有些問題要請教部長，我也希望也許在最後的階段，有一些事情能做的反而更可以放手去做。在請教下列問題之前，我先唸一封我所接獲來自基層的信，他已經大概做到副營長了吧，信中內容是：○○單位的輔導長剛接一年期義務役官兵（16人）最近被長官關注，每天都有不同層級的長官來視導，該連的連長跟副連長狀況不好，所以從前一天0800到第二天0800輪值營戰情，24小時無休，9點時政戰主任心輔知能研討會（報告連上心理狀況有問題的人）一直到下午，我除了隱匿可以辨識他是什麼單位以外，我都是用他原來的字詞反映給部長。所以要改善這些心輔知能研討會上認為需要輔導的人，就一直一直做，也沒有辦法休息。人力不足，後來接著站04到06的夜哨，五個連的副連長、輔導長10人輪30天的戰情，扣掉返台假，這句我忘記刪除了，你大概就可以知道他是在外島，20天要輪完，一週輪一天戰情還要連上夜間安官（一週兩次）跟夜哨（站兩歇六）；○○○營區是新營區（剛起封），這個連才16人，要自己負擔連上勤務，還要支援營勤務；○○○是陸官畢業，正期的，抗壓性不錯，現在是少校副營長（已經調回臺灣），整個禮拜只睡幾個鐘頭，都快瘋掉了，整個基層都快死掉，一直被連坐，一直被檢討，很多人都快做不下去，所以很多人被迫離職，編現比下降，幹部被拔掉懲處，就進入惡性循環。","部長，我花了點時間唸，我不去改他的字。部長，你當一輩子軍人了，在場很多將領從預校到正期到任官，英挺，帶著充滿使命感來到部隊裡面，可我們現在部隊基層發生什麼事情，我相信各位比我還清楚，基層幹部的軍官，一個尉級軍官、少校軍官，或者我們的下士、中士，甚至於三等長，他的業務好重啊，他的勤務很重啊，他的任務也很重，在業務、任務、勤務繁重的狀況下，這些年輕的，我不好意思說孩子們，都成年了，就跟我兒子那個年紀一樣，二十來歲的年輕人，連休息時間都沒有，被壓縮，休息時間一直被壓縮。因為他是領導幹部，有責任感，我一定要把長官交付的命令達成，有什麼問題自己要扛起來，就一直扛，連休息時間都被壓縮，不要說生活了，私人的生活、交友、跟外面正常的互動、跟家人，我們在場有些將領有時候進到洞裡面一待多久，可是當二十幾歲年輕人面對這樣的生活情況的時候，有的就只好離職嘛，編現比就下降嘛，最嚴重的個案還會有生命的消逝。我們最近外島某單位有一位不幸過世，被臺灣紛紛擾擾的新聞蓋掉了，我相信部長知道我講哪個單位，他的勤務狀況大概就是我剛念的這些文字。","部長，我們在這邊認識8年了，我能不能拜託部長，我們一起努力來解這問題？解決方法第一個是增加人力，那個沒辦法速成，我希望編現比拉上來、把預算員額填補上來，這個該做，這個永遠都該做。但在部隊是上而下的體系，掌握權力大的，有一些有時候一聲令下、馬上可以改變的東西，像合理化減少業務、合理化減少勤務、合理化任務，軍人沒錯，軍人不是該死啊！軍人的天命是守護國家、服從命令，但是軍人是國家的資產，從一個下士、一個少尉，哪怕到上將，包含您都是國家重要的資產，犯錯該罰，但是我們應該給他一個合理的工作環境。比如說我們在立法院這邊這麼多年了，外面走廊上面，我看到有些中校、少校，相較各位可能比較低階的，一站就站一個早上，我們也覺得其實有更好的方式、更合理的空間，讓大家更能夠全心全力面對該做的工作，而不是耗損在不必要的事情上。這個過世的案子我認得，我認得這個過世的案子，所以部長你在接下來任期內，能不能具體的減少一些真的是沒必要的業務、沒必要的書面、沒必要的紙類、沒必要的填寫、沒必要的app、沒必要的……就是不斷地重複做一些沒有用的事情，我講得比較過分一點。部長，我不知道你怎麼回應我第一個題目？"],["邱部長國正：第一個，跟委員報告，的確很遺憾，但我不否認有這種事情，的確會有，我也不推責任，因為我不能怪基層幹部或當事人。事實上，我們國軍有很多時期、很多幹部、很多長官都在要求什麼？第一個，我們很清楚我們開不了源，所以人力增加很難……"],["王委員定宇：人力增加當然是該做的。"],["邱部長國正：但我們節流，節約人力的運用，這一直在努力的，我不怪罪這些基層幹部，我一直在跟我同仁說基層他畢竟經驗不夠，要靠我們中高層的人去教。但問題是假如說中高層的幹部，他當初也這樣基層一路過來的，他根本體會不到。但我承認會有這種問題，我經過這麼多年努力，包含前面部長在這方面也很努力，我記得以前更早期有一個李部長，海軍的，他都要求把聯隊裡面這些表簿冊減到最低……"],["王委員定宇：是啊！"],["邱部長國正：剩兩樣，一個是早上點名冊一定要有，第二個就查哨簿，大概就這樣子，其他統統免。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我相信你們，你們在職業生涯都有休假被叫回來加班的經驗……"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯，經過了幾年以後，它又出來，我不能怪他們。所以我跟委員報告，不光是答應委員，而且我覺得這是我們應該要做的基本工作之一，我請各軍種真的要好好檢討一下……"],["王委員定宇：部長，我建議這樣子……"],["邱部長國正：我們規定不要再增加了……"],["王委員定宇：我看過一個日劇叫change，那個首相快下臺前，大家都以為沒有什麼事可以做了，他看到桌上放著一杯一杯的茶，每次開會泡一堆茶都沒有人喝，他就算一算，這一年要花八十幾萬，他說我們哪怕做到最後一天，可以改、可以省掉一點錢，我們都把它改掉。所以部長跟三軍的參謀長跟政戰局長，因為你們現在的位置可以做事情，如果你當年在少校、當年在上尉，我要你去改這個，坦白講，緣木求魚，你們也是一路這樣上來的，能不能檢視一下我們現有的勤務、任務、表單，而且三個軍種把它列為KPI。我在陸軍很合理，陸軍沒有莫名其的表單，每一張單子都是有用的東西，對不對？甚至於可以合併就合併了，有的會自動填寫就自動填寫了，你們比較內行，我們看到的是問題，但我不希望在這邊責備任何人，因為大家都在努力。可是有時候上面越關心，下面的擔子越多；上面越要求減輕，接下來的事情就會更多。本來還輕鬆點，現在要開會大家來研究，我們不要這樣做。部長、各位參謀長跟各位業管，就你們所知道的將心比心。譬如我當上校時，我覺得這個簡直莫名其妙，所以就把它改掉，我們在立法院願意支持這件事情。這件事看起來不比飛機大砲重要，看起來沒有飛彈那麼絢爛、絢麗，但這是紮紮實實的戰力，而且跟編現比、跟停留營的意願其實是有關係；跟很多父母讓孩子來到軍中服務是有關係的；跟現在義務役恢復一年期，家長的擔心也有關係。部長在這個位置上，你就是部長，我期待能在這段時間把過重的勤務、沒有必要的任務、沒有必要的繁雜的東西去除掉。部長，最後能不能請你講幾句話？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我絕對有把握可以改變這個。經過這幾年努力，我到各單位去要你們簡單、簡單、簡單，到最後還是搞得很複雜。但我還是那句話，我不怪他們！但我跟委員報告，現在目前已經改了兩樣事情，也是關鍵事情：第一個，以前部隊推動任何工作，長官很簡單，要求要零缺點，這句話我絕對不講。不可能沒有缺點，但你要求零缺點，那麼他唯一最快的方法就是把書面改一改，這樣就零缺點了，我們絕對不這樣做！第二個，我不做評比，也就是連跟連做評比，哪個營跟旅做評比。評到最後，當中可能就出了很多弊端，有些幹部比較機靈的，就會用這種方法，可能造成後患無窮。我們在部隊裡面多年，我也曾經遇過長官的要求不合理，但我知道我無法片面改變。我要跟委員報告，從當基層幹部開始到現在，我做法都沒有變，簡單扼要，不要搞鋪張……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為時間關係……"],["邱部長國正：我來努力……"],["王委員定宇：我們在可見的這幾個禮拜，紮紮實實做一些改變出來。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["王委員定宇：讓基層幹部感受到不一樣，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：我還有兩個問題，但我先請教部長第三個問題。現在海軍預計成立濱海作戰指揮部，下轄海鋒大隊、飛彈快艇、海洋監偵，也就是雷達相關單位，這個訊息沒有錯吧？因為這已經談了相當時間，且指揮官的編階會拉到中將位置，以上這樣表述有沒有錯誤，海軍參謀長？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，因應目前的法定預算，不管雄風系列或魚叉飛彈的逐次成軍，在可見的未來是一定要做一個整合……"],["王委員定宇：這是對的，你看烏克蘭沒有海軍還可以打得黑海艦隊到處跑！我現在講的是我所看到的媒體報導，所以我要請教你；如果不方便回答，我們可以私下討論。也就是這個單位將來要負擔24海里內的防務，對還是錯？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這個不會是在24海里，因為這是整個防衛概念……"],["王委員定宇：光看到下轄海鋒、飛彈快艇，還有海洋監偵，然後這個單位管24海里以內的防務，我就看不懂了！海鋒大隊隨便一顆飛彈都飛幾百公里，卻只管24海里？所以乍看之下這一段描述我理解不過來，今天才要請教你。你們管的包含載臺，所謂載臺就是不管快艇，或者是移動的車，或者是雷達，或者機動的、固定的，這個單位是管這個。至於載臺上搭載什麼系統、要飛多遠、要做什麼事情，那是另外一件事情。但這牽涉到將來這個單位是直接屬海軍指揮？還是戰時轉由作戰區去指揮？還是直接由參謀本部指揮？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這個都在我們目前編設的考量中，那是我們的目標，也就是在結合平跟戰。平時的訓練就包含監偵能力與打擊用兵；在作戰狀況提升之後，會都在整個制海下去做一個比較有效率的轉換。"],["王委員定宇：所以指揮鏈你們還沒有確定？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們已經有規劃，但是不會在這邊做比較詳細……"],["王委員定宇：我知道，如果不方便的話，你可以講不方便，我們以國家機密、國家利益為重。我最後要提醒的是，指揮鏈包含後備單位，所以屆時指揮鏈到底應該放在陸軍？放在參謀本部？或者是什麼獨立單位？都牽涉到戰時的因應彈性化，既要去中心化，又要符合指揮鏈的如臂使指，這兩個其實有一些部分是矛盾的。這個議題我們將來繼續討論，至於剛才的第一個議題，我期待在可見的短期時間內能看到邱部長的表現，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時5分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：各位同仁請就坐，後面請就坐，我們準備繼續開會。下面請馬文君委員就質詢台。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.31784375,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.29221875,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.15971875,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.30721875,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.09159375,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.90971875,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.18346875,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.37659375,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.48159375,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.118468750000005,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.85596875,"end":40.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.353468750000005,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.407218750000006,"end":51.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.86659375,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.34721875,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.20659375000001,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.18846875,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.81159375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.34721875000001,"end":86.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.97096875000001,"end":88.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.48534375,"end":91.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.26971875000001,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.98659375000001,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.16784375,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.89346875000001,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.46659375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.73596875000001,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.83596875,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.50971875,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.86784375,"end":127.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.92659375000001,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.13284375,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.70221875000001,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.66784375,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.74221875,"end":147.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.51409375,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.80909375000002,"end":151.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.53034375000001,"end":153.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.82534375,"end":157.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.64346875,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.09034375000002,"end":160.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.45721875,"end":162.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.22909375,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.10659375,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.07659375,"end":170.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.05909375000002,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.64846875,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.69034375,"end":185.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.75721875000002,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.41909375,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.09284375000001,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.93596875,"end":205.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":207.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.88034375,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.70284375,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.02659375000002,"end":218.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.01784375000003,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.70534375000003,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.08909375000002,"end":223.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.99596875,"end":224.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.16846875000002,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.00346875000002,"end":231.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.62721875000003,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.46659375000002,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.17096875000001,"end":239.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.11159375000003,"end":240.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.44471875000002,"end":242.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.12784375,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.27096875,"end":248.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.35909375000003,"end":250.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.26159375,"end":256.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.48846875000004,"end":259.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.86784375,"end":262.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.50034375,"end":264.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.17096875000004,"end":266.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.01034375,"end":269.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.21659375,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.26596875,"end":280.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.57346875,"end":284.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.76284375,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.37346875000003,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.71909375,"end":296.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.35159375,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.07284375,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.47721875,"end":305.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.94096875,"end":307.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.42159375,"end":309.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.60284375000003,"end":311.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.21846875,"end":313.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.37846875,"end":317.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.79971875,"end":319.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.95971875000004,"end":321.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.10721875,"end":323.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.44034375,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.49909375000004,"end":330.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.93284375,"end":334.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.94909375000003,"end":338.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.50971875000005,"end":339.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.75409375000004,"end":342.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.08284375,"end":343.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.60971875,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.72721875,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.77346875,"end":352.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.61721875,"end":353.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.96721875000003,"end":355.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.46909375,"end":356.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.89909375,"end":358.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.36721875,"end":376.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.56284375,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.86221875,"end":383.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.35909375,"end":388.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.01659375,"end":395.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.25596875,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.28909375,"end":401.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.22471875,"end":415.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.30346875000004,"end":422.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.64846875,"end":425.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.66909375,"end":464.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.38846875,"end":439.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.13409375000003,"end":450.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.58721875000003,"end":467.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.16096875000005,"end":467.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.70471875000004,"end":472.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.49284375,"end":475.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.78784375000004,"end":489.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.72659375,"end":490.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.43534375,"end":494.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.17721875,"end":497.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.10096875000005,"end":497.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.13471875000005,"end":513.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.71846875,"end":520.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.9115937500001,"end":521.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.24471875,"end":524.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.6240937499999,"end":525.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.53534375,"end":527.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.8259687500001,"end":529.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.3447187500001,"end":541.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.0559687500001,"end":560.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.28096875,"end":568.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.8828437500001,"end":582.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.06221875,"end":591.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.5122187500001,"end":595.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.38096875,"end":606.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.9740937500001,"end":612.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.7790937500001,"end":619.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.69784375,"end":621.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.99284375,"end":633.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.05846875,"end":650.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.0178437500001,"end":660.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.2822187500001,"end":673.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.8159687500001,"end":683.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.67159375,"end":684.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.13909375,"end":690.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.2865937500001,"end":686.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.01596875,"end":691.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.1340937500001,"end":716.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.22596875,"end":696.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.15096875,"end":718.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.1084687500002,"end":734.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.6940937500001,"end":724.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.5915937500001,"end":741.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.9540937500001,"end":735.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.5234687500001,"end":737.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.4340937500001,"end":750.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.8840937500001,"end":751.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.95159375,"end":751.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.36909375,"end":760.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.9890937499999,"end":754.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.41471875,"end":767.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.0122187500001,"end":771.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.4040937500001,"end":782.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.16596875,"end":784.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.8872187500001,"end":807.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.02721875,"end":807.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.6684687500001,"end":807.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.3940937500001,"end":814.7390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.02596875,"end":830.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.5890937500001,"end":836.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.7322187500001,"end":832.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.01409375,"end":848.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.64096875,"end":862.15784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.629,"end":28.245,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長請邱部長王委員好部長早這個任期將屆但是軍人就是軍人一輩子的工作我有一些問題要請教部長我也希望也許在最後的階段有一些事情能做的反而更可以放手去做"},{"start":29.454,"end":50.886,"text":"我再請教下列問題我先念一封我接到基層的他已經大概做到副營長了吧的一封信某某單位的輔導長剛接一年期義務役官兵16人最近被長官關注每一天都有不同層級的長官來視導"},{"start":53.13,"end":81.133,"text":"聯的聯長跟副聯長狀況不好所以從前一天動巴動動到第二天動巴動動輪值迎戰情20小時無休9點的時候政戰主任新府之人研討會報告聯上心理有問題的人報告聯上有些狀況的人一直到下午我除了隱匿可以辨識他什麼單位以外我都用他原來的字詞反映給部長所以"},{"start":82.403,"end":98.451,"text":"要改善這些心理知能研討會上認為需要輔導的人那一直一直做也沒有辦法休息人力不足後來接著做站這個動四動六的夜哨五個連的副連長輔導長10個人輪30天戰情扣掉反台價這句我忘記刪了你大概就知道在外島"},{"start":106.116,"end":123.917,"text":"20天要輪完一週輪一天暫勤還要連上夜間安關一週兩次跟夜哨站兩歇六某某某營區新營區剛啟封這個連才16個人要自己負擔連上勤務還要支援營的勤務某某人是入關畢業"},{"start":125.922,"end":153.819,"text":"正期的抗壓性不錯現在是少校副營長現在已經調回台灣整個禮拜只睡幾個鐘頭都快瘋掉了整個基層都快死掉了一直被連坐一直被檢討很多人快坐不下去所以很多人被迫離職邊線筆下降幹部被拔掉懲處進入惡性循環我花了點時間念我不去改他的字部長你當一輩子軍人了"},{"start":154.912,"end":178.324,"text":"我們在場很多將領從小右就是御孝到正齊到任官、殷廷帶著充滿使命感來到部隊裡面可我們現在部隊基層發生什麼事情我相信各位比我還清楚基層的幹部的軍官一個衛級軍官、少校軍官或者我們的下士、中士甚至於三等長"},{"start":179.687,"end":208.334,"text":"他的業務好重啊他的勤務很重啊他的任務也很重這些業務任務勤務繁重的狀況下這些年輕我不好意思說孩子們都成年了就跟我兒子那個年紀一樣20來歲的年輕人連休息時間都沒有被壓縮休息人一直壓縮因為他是領導幹部有責任感我一定要把長官交付的命令達成有什麼問題自己要扛起來就一直扛"},{"start":210.315,"end":233.066,"text":"連休息時間都被壓縮不要說生活了私人的生活交友跟外面正常的互動跟家人我們在場有些將領有時候進到洞裡面一待多久可是當二十幾歲年輕人他面對這樣的生活情況的時候有的就只好離職嘛"},{"start":234.67,"end":235.21,"text":"我能不能拜託部長"},{"start":263.544,"end":290.716,"text":"我們一起努力來解決這個問題解決方法第一個是增加人力那個沒辦法速成我希望邊線筆拉上來我希望把預算原額把它填補上來這個該做這個永遠都該做但有一些當在部隊是上而下的體系掌握權力大的有時候一聲令下馬上可以改變的東西像合理化減少業務"},{"start":292.435,"end":319.492,"text":"合理化減少勤務合理化任務軍人沒錯軍人不是該死啊軍人的天命是守護國家服從命令但是軍人是國家的資產從一個下士一個少尉哪怕到上將包含您都是國家重要的資產犯錯該罰但是我們應該給他一個合理的工作環境有時候我們在立法院這邊"},{"start":321.181,"end":341.793,"text":"這麼多年了外面走廊上面我看到有些中校少校相較各位可能比較低階的一站站一個早上我們也覺得其實有更好的方式更合理的空間讓大家更能夠全心全力的面對該做的工作而不是耗損在不必要事情上這個過世的案子我認得我認得這個過世的案子"},{"start":350.782,"end":356.148,"text":"所以部長你在接下來任期內我們能不能"},{"start":357.967,"end":360.808,"text":"第一個跟委員報告的確很遺憾但我不否認有這種事情的確會有"},{"start":384.48,"end":401.651,"text":"我也不推責任,因為我不能怪基層幹部或他當事人。事實上我們國軍有很多時期,很多幹部,很多長官都在要求什麼?第一個我們很清楚,我們開不了員,所以開員人力增加不是我們要做的。"},{"start":402.512,"end":423.762,"text":"但我們節約人力的運用是一直在努力的我不怪罪這些基層幹部我一直在跟我同仁講說基層他畢竟經驗不夠要靠我們中高層的人去教但問題是假如說中高層的幹部他當初也叫基層一路過來的他根本體會不到但我承認會有這種問題"},{"start":425.723,"end":453.618,"text":"我經過這麼多年努力包含前面部長也在這方面也很努力我記得以前更早期李部長和海軍的他都要求把連隊裡面這些表部冊撿到最低剩兩樣一個早上點名冊一定要有第二個就查照簿就加這個樣子其他通通免部長我相信你們生涯都有被休假叫出來加班的經驗經過了幾年以後他又出來我不能怪他們"},{"start":454.378,"end":472.561,"text":"所以我跟委員報不光是答應委員而且這我覺得我們應該要做的基本工作之一我請各軍種真的要好好檢討一下我們的規定不要再增加了我看過一個電視劇叫日劇叫Change那個首相快下台前"},{"start":473.662,"end":473.902,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":495.296,"end":520.101,"text":"因為你們現在的位置可以做事情如果你當年在少校當年在上位我要你去改這個齁我坦白講緣木求魚你們也是一路這樣上來的能不能檢視一下我們現有的勤務任務表單而且三個軍種齁把列為KPI以後我在陸軍很合理陸軍齁沒有莫名其妙表單每一張單子都是有用的東西對不對"},{"start":522.304,"end":522.704,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":542.113,"end":567.61,"text":"接下來的事情更多本來還輕鬆點現在要開一個會大家來研究我們不要這樣做我就說就部長跟各位參謀長跟各位業館就你們知道的你就將心比心我當時當上校的時候我覺得這個簡直是莫名其妙的我就把它改掉那我覺得我們在立法院願意支持這個事情這個事情看起來不比飛機大炮重要看起來不比飛彈"},{"start":569.926,"end":570.266,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":592.571,"end":618.111,"text":"部長在這個位置上你就是部長我們在這段時間把這個過重的勤務沒有必要的任務沒有必要的這些繁雜的東西把它去除掉能不能請你最後講幾句話我跟委員報告我絕對有這個把握我可以改變這個雖然經過這幾年努力我到各單位去我想你們簡單簡單簡單到最後還是很複雜但我還是這句話我不怪他們"},{"start":622.054,"end":649.966,"text":"但我跟委員報告我現在目前已經改兩樣事情也是關鍵第一個以前部隊推動任何工作長官很簡單他要求我們要零缺點我這句話我絕對不講不會沒有缺點你要求零缺點他唯一最快方法出面改一改那就零缺點我們絕對不這樣做第二個我不做評比了這個聯跟這個聯做評比打個迎擊跟旅客評到最後"},{"start":651.032,"end":651.172,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":673.908,"end":691.133,"text":"我到現在做法都沒有變喔簡單扼要不要搞那個鋪髒的所以我在還是我努力我們在可見的這幾個禮拜紮紮實實做一些改變出來讓基層的幹部有感受說欸不一樣好不好另外喔"},{"start":691.713,"end":717.547,"text":"我請教我還有兩個問題我看我移到第三個問題請教部長我們現在海軍的冰海作戰指揮部預計要成立嘛吼那下轄海豐大隊飛彈快艇跟海洋艦針就我們一些雷達相關單位這個訊息沒有錯吧因為這個已經談了相關時間那這一個指揮官的邊接會把他拉上到中將的位置我一向這樣表述有沒有錯誤那個海軍參謀長"},{"start":719.644,"end":740.759,"text":"報告委員因應整個的目前我們法定預算不管我們雄風系列或是魚叉飛彈的逐次的成軍在可見的未來是一定要做一個當晚的作戰這個是一個對的啦因為你看烏克蘭沒有海軍還可以打的黑海艦隊跑到處都是我現在要講的是我看到"},{"start":741.559,"end":767.541,"text":"我看到媒體報導的所以我現在要請教你如果不方便回答我們可以私下討論就是這個單位將來是要負擔24海里內的防務對還是錯?報告委員這個不會是在24海里內我們不方便因為這是整個防衛的概念我光看到下轄海豐飛彈快艇還有海洋尖針然後這個單位管24海里內防務我就看不懂了"},{"start":768.121,"end":796.244,"text":"因為我們海豐大隊隨便一顆都飛幾百公里啊那你只管20台里這一看就所以我認為這一段描述我理解不過來我今天才要請教你好那所以我們管的包含載台載台就是不管是快艇或者是移動的車或者是雷達或者機動的或固定的我們這個單位是管這一個至於這個載台上面搭載什麼系統要飛多遠要做什麼事情那是另外一件事情"},{"start":796.704,"end":801.228,"text":"這就牽涉到說將來這個單位是直接屬海軍指揮還是暫時轉為作戰區去指揮還是直接向參謀本部指揮"},{"start":808.807,"end":835.93,"text":"報言這個都在我們目前編設的考量中間那是我們的目標就是在結合平跟戰那平時的訓練就包含了艦增能力跟打擊跟用兵那在作戰當狀況提升之後他會都在整個制海下面他會做一個比較有效率的轉換所以指揮鏈你們還沒有確定我們已經有規劃但是不會在這邊因為我知道不方便你可以講不方便啦我們國家機密國家利益為重我最後提醒就是說指揮鏈"},{"start":836.971,"end":836.991,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}