{"error":false,"id":["151266"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151266,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151266","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T10:31:52+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T10:43:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016270999ca0650ae5e990e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c9426b757c7aa9b9ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:31:52 - 10:43:26","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":60,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時31分）謝謝陳雪生召委，請王國材部長、趙興華局長，還有氣象署程署長。"],["主席：請王部長、趙局長、氣象署署長"],["王部長國材：李召委早。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好，對於任何地方重要的交通建設，其實交通委員會長期以來都是不分黨派也沒有意識形態給予全力的支持，我們看馬祖的建設就好，陳雪生召委也非常認真、實在的爭取，也為馬祖爭取了很多重要的交通建設。對於國道六號延伸花蓮這樣一個特別條例，其實我們對於任何縣市尤其是花蓮一條安全的道路，當然都會全力的支持，但是交通建設，大家都很清楚，是不能用法律來匡定的，它必須透過嚴謹的程序，相關的不管是地質調查、可行性研究還有環境的綜合規劃，然後是環境影響評估、環差的評估、財務的評估，都是必須的。剛才也提到這次花蓮的地震，蘇花改發揮了應有的安全功能，目前是還沒有蘇花安，因為蘇花安現在還在做環境影響評估，不是嗎？來，說明一下。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，蘇花安現在在做環評、綜規。"],["李委員昆澤：所以就是只有蘇花改，其實本來就是蘇花高速公路，但因為環境評估沒有通過，我們為了讓花蓮有安全的道路，所以再改為蘇花改，接著還有蘇花安。我們對於交通建設都會給予全力的支持。剛才也提到這一條道路從埔里到花蓮，過去從79年開始，不管是一般的道路或是國道相關的延伸，其實已經經過藍綠的執政，經過9次相關的評估、分析等等，所以還是必須要有一套嚴謹的程序，尤其是經過中央山脈，它有斷層的問題、有岩爆的問題、有地熱的問題、有湧泉的問題，所以地質調查非常重要，因為任何交通建設一定要以安全為前提，要以永續為前提，要以共生為前提，不是嗎？安全的道路就是這樣來的啊！我們也提到這一次國六東延的條例，說要在10年內完成，可行嗎？雪山隧道不過13公里，挖了15年才完成，臺北的鐵路地下化23公里，也經過了28年才完成，那國道六號全長大概90公里，有70公里是隧道，最長的隧道照目前的規劃大概超過17公里，如果真的要施工，它是全世界第三長的隧道，10年內能完成嗎？部長、局長，你們都是交通的專家，如果這個條例通過，10年內能完成嗎？說明一下。"],["王部長國材：非常困難啦，我跟委員再報告，國道六號東延花蓮事實上過去是已經打死了，不做了，後來我們覺得必須往前走，所以我們現在在做一件事，就是剛剛談到的地質調查，還有路廊的踏勘，路廊怎麼樣避過這些環境敏感或地質敏感的地帶，現在這個已經按照我們中長程個案計畫在進行當中，如果在踏勘以後找到路廊，然後評估可行，我們就進入可行性評估然後綜合規劃、環評等等程序。的確剛才委員所提的非常重要，就是過去我們全國的各個個案計畫都經過詳細的評估，如果沒有詳細的評估就定案，未來面臨很多課題而沒辦法克服的時候，這個條例就沒辦法執行。國道六號東延花蓮已經在進行當中了，就看我們執行的結果，我想我們可以加速。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我們都支持對於地方發展有重要提升的重大交通建設，交通委員會都是不分黨派、不分藍綠，也沒有意識形態全力的支持。我想陳雪生召委對於交通委員會長久的這樣一個共識，覺得是一個很重要的方向，那對於重要的交通建設，當然現在要立法來推動，或者是大家對於權力分立的原則，認為立委的權力應該要更大，要凌駕行政、司法，這都另當別論，但是千萬別忘了交通建設要以安全、永續、共生為最重要的前提，尤其是中央山脈，這一次0403花蓮大地震造成整個生態的衝擊，我們要讓整個交通建設更符合安全、永續這樣一個前提，希望各位交通委員會的委員要深切地思考。","另外，我們現在來討論地震的問題，程署長，我們看到2024年4月份，4月到目前還沒有過完，總共已經發生了940次的地震，顯著的有感地震有191個，最大的有感地震，它的半徑如果超過300公里以上，就是顯著的有感地震；另外小區域的地震有749個，最大的有感半徑從100公里到200公里就是小區域的地震。對照2023年4月，2024年4月的地震其實增加了10倍，2023年災防的國家級警報發布了13次，2024年到今天已經發布了26次，是不是請署長說明一下？"],["程署長家平：是，國家級警報的發布有一定的標準，只要在規模和震度達到一個程度的時候，我們就會發布，的確在花蓮的地震之後有很多的餘震，那所產生的……"],["李委員昆澤：署長，這個國家級警報是2012年我推動的，當時還沒有細胞廣播系統，也沒有國家級警報，我要求當時的毛治國部長必須要全力的建置這些相關機制，也要求NCC要全力配合，但是這個國家級警報到目前為止誤報的情形還是時有發生，這個機制應該要進行修正。我們看到從2021年到現在為止，發生了7次重大誤報事件，不管是2021年，宜蘭同一個區域的同一個地震發布了14次的地震，或者是震度2級它也發布這樣的告警，又或者是臺東2級地震，卻在臺南發布國家級的警報。這一次大家印象最深刻的就是4月3號有七個縣市應該要發布卻沒有發布，當然4月3號7.2級的這個地震，因為低估為6.8級的強震，所以這七個縣市沒有發布。我有一個具體的想法，地震預警應該要發布而沒有發布，現在發布的標準是25gal對不對？請署長說明一下。"],["程署長家平：4級地震的震度25gal。"],["李委員昆澤：3級地震的能量大概是8至25gal，是不是這樣？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["李委員昆澤：好，當規模達到22.5gal的時候，其實就會感受到明顯的晃動，對不對？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["李委員昆澤：那我們會不會去修正這個發布值，避免誤報也避免漏報的情況？針對這個發布值，我們有沒有找學者專家再次開會來討論這個標準值應該是要多少？請署長說明一下。"],["程署長家平：是，這個的確有考量，我們也在檢討。相關的這些作為，我們其實已經邀請了學者專家，在下個禮拜就會有學者專家的討論會，針對後續相關的改善作為去做討論。"],["李委員昆澤：另外就是規模6.5以上的地震，震度會比較強，相關的餘震一定也會比較多，而且震的時間也比較久，我們是不是請專家學者大家來研究一下，當發生規模6.5以上的地震時，震度3級以上，是否這些區域也發布告警？這個要用很嚴謹的態度來思考，請署長簡單說明一下。"],["程署長家平：是，這個在過去我們的討論裡面的確有討論到，針對這個部分，因為發布會牽涉到防災單位相關的作為，其實過去我們有邀請災防辦還有地方政府的災防機關一起討論，我想經過這一次的事件之後，對這件事情會有一個比較明確的結論。"],["李委員昆澤：必須以更嚴謹的態度來修正相關的這些標準值，讓民眾能夠確實得到預警的效果，十二年來也逐漸建立了國家級警報大家對於它的基本信任，相關誤報、漏報的狀況必須儘速做一個調整，氣象署必須全力督促相關作業。"],["程署長家平：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤總召。"],["李委員昆澤：召委啦！不要這樣啦！"],["主席：好，下一位請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra 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來說明一下非常困難我跟委員在報告就國道這個東六號東延花蓮事實上過去是已經講說已經打死的不做了那我們後來覺得必須這個往前來走所以我們現在在做一件事就剛才談到的地址的調查還有路廊的踏竿路廊"},{"start":270.582,"end":295.652,"text":"我們要避過這些環境敏感或地質敏感的地帶那現在這個已經按照我們這個中長期個案計畫在進行當中了如果在我們榻坑路廊找到然後這個這個平屋可行我們就進入可行性然後綜合規劃、環評等等的程序那的確剛才委員所提的非常重要就是說過去我們全國的各個個案計畫"},{"start":296.912,"end":302.51,"text":"都是經過一個詳細的評估。如果沒有一個詳細的評估就把它定案。"},{"start":304.292,"end":328.217,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":328.297,"end":354.376,"text":"不分黨派不分藍綠也沒有意識形態都會全力的支持我想陳雪生召委對於交通委員會長久的這樣的一個大家的共識覺得這是一個很重要的一個方向那對於重要的交通建設當然現在用定法律的狀況要來推動或者是大家對於權力分立的原則認為"},{"start":356.078,"end":372.498,"text":"禮委的權利應該要更大要凌駕行政要凌駕司法這都另當別論但是千萬別忘了交通建設安全永續共生這是最重要的前提"},{"start":373.823,"end":396.167,"text":"尤其是中央山脈這一次0403的花蓮大地震造成整個生態的衝擊我們要讓整個交通建設更符合安全永續的這樣的一個前提我希望各位委員交通委員會的委員要深切的思考另外我們現在來討論地震的問題"},{"start":400.007,"end":417.722,"text":"陳署長,我們這一次其實我們看到2024四月份這個四月到目前還沒有過完四月份總共發生了940次的地震那顯著的有感地震有191個最大的有感"},{"start":418.899,"end":436.169,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":436.553,"end":447.065,"text":"地震我們來比照2023年同樣是4月其實增加了10倍那2023年的這樣的一個災防的一個國家級警報發佈了13次2024年到今天已經發佈了26次是不是來署長說明一下"},{"start":458.53,"end":472.684,"text":"國家級警報發布有一定的標準只要規模和震度達到一個程度的時候就會發布的確在花蓮地震之後有很多的余震國家級警報是2012年我推動的當時還沒有細胞廣播系統也沒有國家級警報"},{"start":480.191,"end":495.303,"text":"那要求當時的毛志國部長必須要全力的建置相關的這一些機制也要求NCC要全力的配合但是我們國家級這個警報到目前為止他的"},{"start":496.738,"end":514.618,"text":"午報的情形還是時有發生我們這個機制應該要進行修正那我們看到2021年到今年到現在為止發生了7次重大的午報事件不管是2021年你看同一個地震宜蘭"},{"start":517.66,"end":534.707,"text":"同一個區域的地震發布了14次的地震或者是震度兩極他也發布這樣一個告警或者是台東二級地震卻在台南發布這個國家警的警報那這一次大家印象最深刻的就4月3日有7個縣市應該要發布沒有發布當然我們這個"},{"start":542.358,"end":570.617,"text":"四月三號當然是這個7.2級的這個地震也會低估為6.8級的強震所以我這七個縣市沒有發布那我有一個具體的想法地震預警應該要發布而沒有發布那現在發布的標準是25G對不對來署長說明一下是四級地震的震度25G好三級地震的能量大概是8至25G是不是這樣是"},{"start":573.379,"end":594.697,"text":"這個規模達到22.5G的時候其實就會感受到明顯的放動 對不對?是那我們會不會去修正這個花布值避免誤報也避免漏報的這樣一個情況這個修正值我們有沒有找學者專家來再次的開會來討論這個標準值應該是要多少來,署長說明一下"},{"start":594.997,"end":612.017,"text":"是 這個的確有考量我們也在檢討那相關的這個這些的作為我們其實已經有邀請了這個學者專家我們在下個禮拜就會有學者專家的討論會針對這個後續的相關的改善作為去做討論好署長"},{"start":613.439,"end":625.625,"text":"另外就是規模6.5以上的這個地震啊它震度會比較強而且一定會相關的餘震會比較多而且震的時間也比較久那我們是不是"},{"start":627.598,"end":641.162,"text":"來研究一下請專家學者大家來研究這個發生規模6.5以上的地震的時候震度3級以上是否這些區域也花布告緊這個是要很嚴謹的態度來思考來請署長簡單說明一下"},{"start":644.483,"end":664.011,"text":"是這個在過去我們的討論裡面的確有討論那這個部分因為發布會牽涉到防災單位相關的作為那其實過去我們有邀請這個災防辦還有地方政府的災防機關一起做討論那我想經過這一次的這個事件之後對這件事情會有一個比較明確的的結論"},{"start":664.991,"end":693.712,"text":" ＼"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}