{"error":false,"id":["151267"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151267,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151267","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T10:43:39+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T10:52:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627cb4988d62b2334820e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c9420b7ea364581afcb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:43:39 - 10:52:37","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":86,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時43分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：王部長請。"],["王部長國材：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。本席這個會期已經三次提出這個問題，兩次在交通，一次在經濟，針對這個特別條例這是第三次了，說實在話，本席講得都已經有一點老生常談了，這個會期就講了三次。本席要再一次強調，每一個委員為自己的選區爭取權益，每一個委員為國家重大建設發展來爭取，我都覺得很合理，但是本席要再一次強調，本席絕對反對用特別條例！如果此例一開，第一個破壞了憲法權力分立的原則，立法委員只要誰占多數，立法委員相互支持，大家都來提特別條例嘛！我跟雪生召委已經做很多年的同事了，他長期為離島在拼命，為他的馬祖在拼命，他也很清楚地知道，你看他今天只給我五分鐘，他也很清楚地知道這個題目沒什麼好講的，所以他只給我五分鐘，因為他知道我上來又要批評這件事情。相信資深委員都知道，這件事情如果這樣搞可行，他早就已經針對馬祖至少提兩百個特別條例了，對不對？例如他可以提馬祖臺灣大橋特別條例，馬祖霧一來就不能動，不是他不能來開會，而是整個馬祖的鄉親很不方便啦，那要不要搞一個特別條例，馬祖直接蓋一個大橋直通臺灣，對不對？他也知道，他心中也覺得如果可行、有預算、環評都過了，可行性評估也過，政府也有錢，當然他會很支持，我也很支持，雖然我不住馬祖，他也約過我很多次，雖然我都沒有去馬祖，可是我也會支持，為什麼？這個條件一切都符合，你看他為什麼那麼多年很認真在立法院質詢？我在當副院長的時候，他每次上臺總質詢，他都很認真把馬祖鄉親的需求讓行政部門知道，因為這是權力分立，現場那麼多的委員，難道每一個選區沒有需要的嗎？上一次我就跟你講過，如果特別條例這種作法是可行的，我也講過大臺中發展特別條例需要1兆，請你幫我準備好，我就要提這個，不可行嘛！不能這樣搞嘛！權力分立，憲法給予立法院什麼職權？我們叫五權分立，大家不滿意，改為三權我都沒意見，那個都是大家可以討論的，在民主社會、民主政治裡面都可以討論，但現行五權分立的架構裡面，立法院負責什麼、行政院負責什麼，大家清清楚楚，這樣國家才有辦法運作嘛！","回到國道六號的延伸，本席過去也曾經講過，這個是國家重大建設，這條如果通的話，那臺中到花蓮很近嘛，所以交通部現在也在進行，你們叫做地表地質的調查，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：那你為什麼要做地表地質的調查？"],["王部長國材：那個地方在中央山脈的確碰到很多岩爆，還有地質斷層的一些……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，所以它是很務實、科學的，我們要面對很多環團對於環境的質疑，蓋了這一條路，對臺灣原生的植物、動物，對臺灣的環境有沒有產生什麼樣的衝擊？我們必須把對環境的衝擊跟影響做一個很完整的評估，我們不應該再相信人定勝天，一個地震，你看我們今天都還要為地震進行相關討論，臺灣這個多地震的島嶼，我們不斷的在祈福，不斷的在努力，設法讓災害降至最低。沒辦法，我們克服不了天，它要讓我們地震就地震，但我們提供怎麼樣的預警系統，我們提供怎麼樣的防震法規條文，讓房子蓋得更堅固，所以我們只能在上天憐憫的情況底下，我們盡其人類的可能來做。","一樣的道理，當我們面對國家重大建設，我們第一個要想到我們要挑戰天要挑戰什麼？所以針對國道六號，我不會在一開始就毫無理性的說贊成或反對，但我遵照行政機關這麼多年下來的一套評估程序，這個評估的程序就是類似像這個事情，我們必須從地質的調查開始，另外還有很多，包括原住民的問題、斷層的問題，以後這一條會不會經過多少地震斷層帶的問題，詳細把它研究好之後，如果覺得這是可以克服的，我們就進入下一個階段叫做可行性評估，接著可行性評估如果又過關了，可行性評估當然包括環評，如果這些都過關了，我們才有細部設計、才有綜合規劃，這個就是一個流程，這個就是行政流程，這個就是評估任何一個重大建設理性務實的角度，不理盲、不衝撞，不因為政治口水淹沒了我們的專業，這個也是未來這個建設能夠成功，要說服民眾、說服跟我們意見不同的人，我們有一個基本的科學理性的根據，這個就是這一套嘛！","我已經講了第三次，今天只剩下五分鐘，但我還是必須再一次在這裡大聲的呼籲，本席對於每一個委員要提案去爭取建設，我都沒意見，但是用特別條例的方式，如果此例一開，我跟大家保證，每一個人都有幾百個特別條例要提。我常常跟你們講，我對人行道、人孔蓋都不滿嘛，我有人孔蓋發展特別條例，我有水溝興建特別條例，一大堆，我都準備好了，如果這個可行、這樣惡搞可行的話。","所以本席還是再三呼籲，立法院立法委員大家很努力要為地方發展講話，本席都覺得很棒、很肯定，但是我們立法委員不可以帶頭毀憲亂政，用這種明顯違反權力分立原則的方式，我們立法院已經11屆了，不是第1屆。","最後，因為時間已經到了，我只提醒一點，對於震後，現在我們在談應變機制，事實上已經開始應變了，但是本席比較關心的是震後花蓮觀光產業的振興。大家知道，這兩年已經先天不良，從疫情結束之後，發生了國人旅遊型態的改變、缺工的問題、觀光客結構的調整，我們從過去的陸客要調整到國際觀光客，這些都讓這兩年的觀光產業面臨很大的危機，很辛苦。花蓮靠觀光產業，又面臨這麼嚴重的地震，因為時間的關係，我沒有辦法花時間跟你認真討論，但本席希望對於花蓮震後觀光的振興，交通部觀光署一定要提出計畫。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：只要你們有想法，本席再就教你們。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我覺得要積極面對，特別像花東的觀光產業其實是很需要的，我們一起來努力。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：譬如我也再請職棒聯盟評估，看看可不可以透過職棒比賽帶動西部的觀光客、球迷過去那邊，讓他們在那邊住一晚、兩晚，帶動地方的消費，這也是一個方法。聯盟是民間，職籃也可以，但是政府應該有一個計畫，我們民間單位都很願意配合觀光署，譬如職棒聯盟也來配合觀光署，看你們有什麼樣的政策，大家一起來做，把人帶進去，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝蔡副院長。"],["主席：謝謝蔡副院長對馬祖的支持，希望你第4次發言繼續幫我們發聲，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：不要再吵這個了。"],["主席：剛才你講馬祖的時間我都幫你扣掉了。"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道，我有發現。"],["主席：下一位請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra 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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":499.122,"end":511.097,"text":"指放聯盟來評估嘛我們指放可以帶動可不可以透過指放的比賽然後帶動西部的觀光客的球迷就過去那邊然後可以讓他住就住"},{"start":511.92,"end":511.98,"text":"謝謝蔡委員長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}