{"error":false,"id":["151286"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151286,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151286","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T11:45:50+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T11:58:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627417faf99e902cbacb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c949cc3a2a7c74431455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:45:50 - 11:58:25","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":949,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時45分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，幾乎每次提到垃圾減量，雖然這幾年來我們的回收量是有增加，但是我們的垃圾量也是逐年一直上升，當然是有很多的面向。今天我想要請教，我們的資源回收量在這十年中好像也做得不錯，但家戶垃圾也是一樣在逐年上升當中，尤其是在疫情期間，真的是大爆發。請問，我們希望源頭減量，到底在這幾年當中源頭減量的部分是不是真的有落實？或者你們是做到什麼樣的源頭減量？看到這個，我覺得環境部應該可以做得更多，是不是先請部長回應一下？"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝黃委員的關心。根據數據顯示，過去幾年的垃圾量是增加的，但是其中有兩個因素，第一個因素，事實上我們在107年針對一般垃圾改變了定義，把事業、企業員工消費那一塊的垃圾也歸類為一般，這是第一個；第二個因素，一般臨時性產生的垃圾，譬如有一些大型的活動，或是因為天災、水災而造成的環境垃圾，這些也都歸類為一般垃圾。因此過去這些年來，我們會看到垃圾量持續增加，但是剛剛黃委員也特別提到，回收量也是持續上升，不過我們的重點當然還是在源頭減量。源頭減量契合今天的主題，特別是垃圾中塑膠的這一塊，真的是有稍微氾濫了一點。我們的民眾現在都會到其他國家旅遊，譬如歐洲的國家，事實上，他們一直都有在控制塑膠的使用量，所以歐盟是走在最前面的。今年聯合國也要訂定一個全球塑膠公約，減少塑膠的使用量。臺灣正好又是這些塑膠的進口、生產最大宗的地方，我們的民眾已經非常習慣使用，因為塑膠取得太便宜又很方便，無論是到傳統市場、到夜市、到攤販、到早餐店，因為這一塊並不是早期第一階段我們納管的對象，但是它們產生的塑膠垃圾量反而是最大的。過去我也一直告訴同仁，我們真的要去做整體的分析，從源頭的部分切斷或追蹤，以前我們是到限制使用的階段而已，還沒有到禁用，原本我們的規劃是2025擴大，幾乎全部都要限用，2030才禁用，但是我個人認為這個應該要再往前。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在時間點是往後移？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有、沒有，我們的目標大概是這樣訂，但是我們的做法、對象要擴大，要趕快擴大。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，幾年前說要禁用塑膠吸管，所以在前幾年好像非常的落實，也有許多廠商研發了紙吸管、甘蔗吸管、稻殼吸管等等，各式各樣的吸管很多。"],["薛部長富盛：還有不鏽鋼的、玻璃的，很多。"],["黃委員秀芳：後來大家覺得政府好像沒有繼續推動，所以大家在這方面就不敢再投資下去，讓我覺得環境部對這個似乎也沒有特別重視。誠如剛剛部長講的，一方面我們未來要如何達到限塑、減塑，我覺得如果環境部重視的話，其實地方或業者的眼睛也很大啦！他們就會知道政府未來的趨勢是如此，但是如果你們不重視的話，大家就是以最方便取得的樣態來使用，以吸管為例，最簡單取得的就是塑膠吸管。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：垃圾量逐年攀升，雖然回收量也是逐年增加，但是我認為源頭的部分更重要，就像剛剛部長講的，我們也希望環境部針對這個部分是不是要再努力，因為環境要好真的也是……"],["薛部長富盛：絕對還有努力的空間。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，真的是有很大的努力空間。此外，我們也看到另一個回收的品項，紙容器的部分，當然紙容器要回收其實也不是那麼容易，像便當盒或一些餐盒可能沾了很多油污在上面，有人可能最後就一整包直接投進垃圾桶，也都沒有分類回收。請問，像這樣的紙容器，環境部到底有沒有訂定什麼樣的標準？當然我們會宣導紙容器回收前至少要先清洗，但有些在清洗後還是油膩膩的，像是裝臭臭鍋的紙容器，洗完之後整個油漬還是在表面上，也許有的家庭就直接丟到垃圾桶了。請問，各式各樣的紙容器沾染了油污之後，到底要清洗得多乾淨才方便回收？"],["薛部長富盛：細節的部分，我待會再請賴署長說明紙容器回收前應該要如何處理。事實上紙容器的製造商很多都是中小企業，甚至沒有真正的工廠登記，所以它在我們資源回收基金這一塊是漏掉的，所以我們每年回收基金收到的也很少。但是我們發現進口的白紙板、相關做助焊劑的反而量很多，感覺上是有一個漏洞，所以我們現在積極要做的就是源頭管理，從進口的這一方進行，才能夠做源頭管理，我們以前是針對製造與輸入業者，進口這一塊反而就被落掉，所以我們沒辦法全部掌控。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，剛剛你說希望從源頭管制嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：臺灣一年有超過10萬噸的紙容器沒有列管，當然你們的回收基金收到的就很少嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：之前說所有的紙容器上都有一個QR Code，但是這個QR Code可能會被亂貼，也許並不是這家合法登記的工廠生產的，卻被沒有登記的生產工廠拿來印上去，可是你們也抓不到啊！所以我一再的講，你們是不是可以從源頭，也就是進口的紙板進來之後，看要如何去課回收基金，我覺得應該從源頭去管制。"],["薛部長富盛：好。向黃委員報告進度，我們過去兩個月已經與21家業者討論如何進行源頭管控的這一塊，基本上蠻多業者也支持我們的想法，所以資源循環署應該在最近就會有草案出來了，我們希望是朝黃委員所講的源頭管控的方向來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為紙容器的部分也是不好回收，而且你們回收基金收的成效也不好，如果源頭的量進來之後，你們應該可以很容易……"],["薛部長富盛：對，我們就可以知道它流到哪裡了。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。另外一種是直接從國外進口，前陣子不是有從中國直接進口的紙容器，當它直接銷售進來，而你們沒有做好源頭管控的話，其實你們也收不到錢啊！"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果你們可以從源頭就收回收基金的話，無論是對業者而言或是對你們而言，可以從源頭就能知道他們到底進了多少的量。部長，我希望能夠儘速從源頭去課該收的回收基金，這樣應該是可以好好的處理這個區塊，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝黃委員的建議。"],["黃委員秀芳：剛剛有委員特別提到農膜的部分，因為之前我也特別提過……"],["薛部長富盛：有。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們彰化也算是農業大縣，很多農民都會使用農膜，可能使用過一次、二次就無法再繼續用，但是回收真的是不容易，有的地方就是堆了一堆，所以我們要請環境部鼓勵回收業者，儘量將這些農膜回收回來，不要讓大家就直接丟棄在田的旁邊，堆成了一堆……"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：或是收到堆置場，其實我覺得這樣都不好，是不是要怎麼樣去回收呢？"],["薛部長富盛：報告委員，事實上，關於這一塊我們是與農業部一起合作，環境部這邊已經補助幾個示範場域，如何進行農膜回收。一般的農膜上面有很多泥土，很髒，直接回收是不行的……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，需要清洗。"],["薛部長富盛：業者已經開發了一種工具，回收時可以順便用水清洗將泥土弄掉，接下來回收的那一塊就可以直接做，現在已經有在做了。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們的示範場域成效很好嗎？還不錯？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得還不錯，這個是可以來推廣的。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果還不錯的話，你們就應該在所有的農業縣市推廣，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：要不然那些農膜堆了一堆，真的是還蠻麻煩的事情，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝黃委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張雅琳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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我們請部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":13.616,"end":41.286,"text":"黃秀芳好部長好部長我們幾乎每一次提到這個垃圾減量真的我們看到在這幾年當中整個我們雖然我們的回收量也有增加可是我們的垃圾量也是逐年一直在上升那當然有很多面向那我今天我想請教就是說我們的這個資源回收量在這10年當中其實我們也覺得這個好像回收量也"},{"start":41.826,"end":42.066,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":59.904,"end":74.65,"text":"好那源頭減量到底在這幾年當中我們這個源頭減量的這個部分是不是真的有去落實或者是你們是做到什麼樣的這個源頭減量因為我覺得看到這個"},{"start":75.951,"end":101.326,"text":"就覺得說應該環境部這邊應該可以做得更多是不是先請部長回應一下好 謝謝黃委員的關心當然這裡面過去這幾年垃圾量這個數據顯示是一直增加但是這裡面有兩個因素第一個因素是我們在107年事實上針對一般垃圾有改變定義它把事業這個企業"},{"start":103.707,"end":106.249,"text":"所以過去這些年來你會看到垃圾量持續增加"},{"start":132.406,"end":149.612,"text":"但是剛剛黃委員特別提到這個回收量事實上也持續在往上不過我們重點當然還是要在源頭減量那源頭減量就是契合今天的主題就是說我們特別是垃圾裡面在塑膠的這一塊真的是有一點點"},{"start":151.292,"end":151.512,"text":"臺灣正好"},{"start":180.262,"end":209.377,"text":"又是這些塑膠的進口啦生產是最大宗的地方那我們的民眾習慣上就是已經非常方便的因為塑膠取得太便宜了所以你到傳統市場到夜市到攤販到早餐店幾乎因為這一塊也的確不是早期第一階段我們納管的對象但是他們所產生的塑膠的垃圾市場反而是最大的"},{"start":209.877,"end":238.068,"text":"所以我在過去事實上也跟我們的同仁一直在講說我們真的要去做整體的分析那要從源頭的部分來切斷或者來追蹤那我們以前是到限制使用的階段而已還沒有到禁用我們原本的規劃是說2025擴大幾乎全部到限用2030才禁用但是我個人覺得這個應該要往前"},{"start":239.989,"end":257.769,"text":"我覺得有一些我們的目標大概是這樣定的但是我們的做法對象要擴大要趕快擴大部長我想請教就是說其實我們在幾年前我們說未來就是禁用那個塑膠吸管"},{"start":258.53,"end":258.69,"text":"是。是。"},{"start":283.856,"end":302.966,"text":"應該就變成說不敢再投資下去也不敢這樣子再去也讓我覺得好像這方面我們環境部也對這個好像也沒有特別重視所以剛剛部長講的就是說一方面我們要怎麼樣去達到未來是這個減塑然後限塑減塑那我覺得說這個應該也是要從"},{"start":310.33,"end":330.098,"text":"這個環境部這邊應該如果說你們有去重視的話其實地方或者是這些業者他們眼睛也很大他也知道說政府現在就是未來的趨勢是這樣子那如果說你們不重視的話其實大家就是用最方便最方便取得的那種樣態來取得就我舉一個最簡單就是說這個吸管"},{"start":333.659,"end":346.655,"text":"黃秀芳就是用最簡單取得的塑膠吸管所以我覺得說這個垃圾量逐年的這個攀升回收量當然也是逐年也是有增加可是我覺得說源頭的這個"},{"start":349.759,"end":374.871,"text":"更重要就是像這個部長剛剛講的我們也希望就是說這個環境部這邊應該針對這一部分是不是要再努力我覺得因為很多環境要好真的有很大的努力空間另外就是說我們也看到另外一個回收的這個品項就是那個紙容器的部分當然紙容器要回收其實也不是"},{"start":376.212,"end":377.993,"text":"環境部有沒有到底有沒有訂定一個什麼樣的一個這個標準就是說"},{"start":406.425,"end":430.779,"text":"我們要清洗當然一般我們會去做一些宣導也就是每一樣可以 脂溶器可以回收可能就是你至少要清洗過那有的清洗完之後整個還是感覺就油膩膩的就像裝那個臭臭鍋的這種脂溶器那洗完之後它還整個表面還是整個油漬還是在上面那有的這個一般的家庭可能看到這個"},{"start":431.619,"end":458.178,"text":"也許他就直接把它丟到垃圾桶去了我想請教就是說像這樣子各式各樣的紙容器它沾染一些什麼油污那到底要清洗得多乾淨那才方便回收事實上這個細節的部分我待會請我們代署長來談說紙容器回收之前要全處理要怎麼樣那我針對紙容器的這一塊事實上紙容器這一塊製造商很多都是從小這個"},{"start":460.259,"end":460.319,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":482.731,"end":505.999,"text":"所以這裡面就感覺上是有一個漏洞那所以我們現在積極要做的就是所謂沿途管理那從進口的這一方來進行才能夠做沿途管理我們以前是製造跟輸入業者那這一塊就反而這個辣掉這個進口所以我們沒有辦法全部來掌控"},{"start":506.519,"end":534.756,"text":"那個部長你剛剛講這個我就想希望就是說源頭去管制那當然我們看到台灣一年有超過10萬噸的這個紙容器是沒有列管那當然你們回收基金收到就很少那甚至之前有說我們所有的紙容器上面都會有一個QR code那這個QR code可能也會被亂貼也許這個不是這一家生產的可能那個這個"},{"start":536.457,"end":539.058,"text":"我一直講就是說你們是不是可以從源頭進口的紙板進來之後你們看要怎麼去課回收基金我覺得應該從源頭去管制"},{"start":559.982,"end":582.148,"text":"給黃委員報告進度,我們過去兩個月跟21家業者已經討論說如何來進行沿途管控的這一塊那基本上蠻多的業者也支持我們的一個想法所以我想這件事應該也會在最近大概就會那個草案就會出來了對我們希望就是黃委員講的沿途管控"},{"start":583.609,"end":601.225,"text":"我希望就是說這個紙容器的部分也是不好回收那當然你們講的這個回收基金的部分也這個成效收的這個成效也不好那當然就是說源頭如果源頭亮進來之後那你們應該可以很容易對我就可以知道它流到哪裡"},{"start":603.326,"end":624.153,"text":"對對對對那另外一種就是直接從國外我們前陣子不是看到從大陸那邊從中國那邊直接進口那個容器紙容器直接進來的那這種未來如果他直接銷進來如果說你沒有源頭管控的話其實你也收不到錢啊對不對所以如果你在源頭可以去去收這個回收基金的話我覺得應該對業者來講也好對你們來講也好就是說可以"},{"start":630.355,"end":646.62,"text":"從源頭就可以去知道他們到底進多少的量那我覺得這個部長我希望就是說能夠儘速把這個源頭克你們想要收的這個回收基金我覺得應該是可以好好的去處理這個區塊"},{"start":648.9,"end":671.01,"text":"謝謝黃委員建議剛剛有委員特別提到這個農磨的部分因為在之前我有特別提到不論是我們彰化也算是農業大縣這個鄉鎮很多他們就會用這個農磨用完之後可能用一次兩次就可能就沒辦法再用就回收可是回收真的不容易"},{"start":671.89,"end":687.022,"text":"所以有的地方是堆製就是堆一堆那我們當然就是說請環境部這邊要去鼓勵回收業者要怎麼去就是盡量盡量去把它回收回來不是讓他們有的就直接丟棄在他們的這個"},{"start":690.224,"end":715.797,"text":"這個田的這個旁邊那丟棄一堆或者是收到這個一個堆置場其實我覺得這樣都不好那是不是要怎麼樣去做回收給王委員報告這一塊事實上我們是跟農業部一起合作環境部這邊已經補助幾個示範場域就是說如何農模回收那一般的農模它上面很多蠻多那個泥土很髒回收事實上"},{"start":716.517,"end":717.978,"text":"所以你們現在釋放的場域這樣子好不好就是說"},{"start":732.831,"end":732.851,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}