{"error":false,"id":["151298"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151298,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151298","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-12","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":12,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T12:04:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T12:12:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016276ab3ea62179ca7ecb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c94a55a4cec380058055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:04:12 - 12:12:27","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1033,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時4分）請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，今天是環境部限塑的專案報告，所以我想與環境部討論關於廢棄物的問題。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實這幾年我們在新聞媒體上看到很多SRF的新聞，包括各縣市發生的爭議，部長應該也都清楚，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，有所瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：部長你看一下，我記得從我一進立法院開始，當時還是環保署，那時在每一次討論到廢棄物的報告裡面，我覺得都滿大力的在說我們要推動這個SRF的技術，包括跟廠商也包括研發什麼等等，真的，我記得每次我們在衛環委員會裡面討論廢棄物議題的時候，其實都聽到環保署對這件事情談了很多，可是我想問一下，現在在SRF的使用上面，環境部到底扮演什麼角色？如果我們仔細來看SRF的話，大概可以分成兩個部分，第一個部分是製造端，第二個部分是使用端，使用端可能在發電廠或者是一些工廠的鍋爐裡面會使用，製造端的部分就是把它做成SRF的可燃粒料以供使用。但我剛剛問了部長，在SRF的爭議裡面，我們現在最擔心的事情其實在於供需的調控，剛才說的製造端等於是供給端，使用端等於是需求端，假如量化來說的話，供給端跟需求端應該有一定程度的對應，對不對？在量的對應方面，假如我們的製造端製造了一大堆，但使用端沒得使用，這其實也沒辦法，對不對？但如果我們的製造端生產很少，供給端的發電廠一大堆，這也有問題，對不對？那看起來勢必是需要一些總量的調控，不管是在供給端或者是在需求端，請問現在環保署怎麼做？"],["薛部長富盛：我完全認同，跟洪委員報告，的確，我去年上任之後也發現了這個問題，所以我就有請同仁要去調整以前的一些作法，因為我們經濟學的基本概念、供需的概念一定要出來。"],["洪委員申翰：可是請部長看一下上一張圖表，這一張是我們把現在每一個政策工具的環節都列出來，在製造端的部分其實大概有幾個類型，再利用有分公告再利用、許可再利用跟處理機構，基本上公告再利用部分的准駁其實是在地方政府，許可再利用部分的准駁是在經濟部，但未來可能會轉成環境部，處理機構部分的准駁權是在地方政府手上，這是製造端的部分。至於使用端呢，使用端的入園許可是在地方政府，電業許可是在經濟部，建造或是後面的設置許可都是在地方政府，其實在這裡面我們幾乎看不到環境部的角色。有啦！剛才講說許可再利用未來可能會從經濟部轉到環境部，但許可再利用相比於公告再利用其實是少數，所以在這些環節裡面，我們現在看到的狀況是環境部在大推SRF，但在真正的管控環節或者是真正的政策工具裡面沒有角色啊！"],["薛部長富盛：跟洪委員報告，所以我們現在希望能夠把它入法，將來要把SRF當作產品的概念來看待。"],["洪委員申翰：然後呢？"],["薛部長富盛：接下來就是要分類，這樣子的話，產品從源頭就可以分類，才不會製造紛爭。為什麼現在大家對SRF幾乎都是負面印象？原因就在於以前在品質方面，前端這部分沒有去管制，所以裡面有包括PVC，將來使用之後就會產生戴奧辛等等，過去這些問題累積下來，導致大家一聽到SRF就有負面印象，我們希望能轉成正面的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我請問你一個問題，今天在桃園生產的SRF粒料能不能夠拉到其他縣市的SRF發電廠去燒？可不可以？應該可以吧，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：可以啊！假如當它是一個產品，只要……"],["洪委員申翰：也就是說現在我們在SRF這部分的大量的管制工具掌握在地方政府手上，這是有問題的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：其實不管是供給端或需求端，一定是需要中央來做相對應的調控嘛！可是我在相關機制設計上面沒有看到呀！所以部長我想要知道的是，經過去年相關的爭議案件以後，現在在這些機制上面，要怎麼把環境部的角色給放進去？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，第一個是從以前的書面審查現在變成書面審查、現勘跟試運轉三個階段。第二個是中央介入，我不能說介入，介入不好聽，就是說……"],["洪委員申翰：中央本來就該介入啊！沒有辦法只交給地方啊！交給地方就是弄到現在遍地烽火啊！"],["薛部長富盛：除非我們把整個制度面去做改變，就是說回歸到環境部，否則依現有的法令規章是地方審查，但是中央環境部應該來協助，現階段是過渡啦。"],["洪委員申翰：請部長再看一下剛剛那張圖，我還是要跟大家說，在這張圖裡面可看出絕大多數的權責都在地方政府手上，在這麼需要中央做一個總量或總體的管控，不管是在供給端或需求端的時候，卻沒有一個明確的工具，這已經不是說中央會來協助、中央會來訪視、中央會來現勘可以解決的問題啦！"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝洪委員提到這個問題，現在SRF為大家所詬病，責怪的時候真的都怪中央，事實上很多權都是……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要說今天對SRF，我願意把它視為就是一個技術，重點是用得好的話，它可以是一個好的技術，用得不好的話，它就會產生壞的影響，所以今天的重點是我們先不把它貼上一個好或壞的標籤，但現在的問題是我們在整體的機制設計上，讓大家覺得中央毫無把關的空間，如果我們只是如同這張表上面呈現的，對地方政府的部分去協助一下、幫忙訪視一下，這解決不了當下SRF的問題啊！過去對於SRF的推動，大家都看到是環境部跟經濟部在推，對不對？尤其是環境部也推得很大力，但這個工具看起來就是讓人覺得你大力推動卻沒有責任啊！"],["主席：好，時間到。"],["薛部長富盛：委員，我們來檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，對怎麼解決SRF管控問題這部分，你多久時間可以給我們一個版本？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們現在目前正在做的包括它的審查或者說稽查的管理，我想我們在一個月內來提供。"],["洪委員申翰：我們要有明確的管制工具，尤其是中央能控在手上的管制工具，而不是那種協助地方的，不是這種東西。在這張圖表上面看得很清楚，再繼續這樣下去的話，我們沒有辦法管控，不管是供給端或需求端都會出問題的，這樣只會讓外界對於SRF愈來愈不信任，這個不信任不一定是來自於它的技術本身，可能是來自於我們管理方法的不足，我要提醒的是這一點，好不好？謝謝！"],["薛部長富盛：我們來檢討這個部分。"],["主席：因為時間關係，請部長會後跟委員補充說明。謝謝！","接下來我們請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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端製造一大堆但使用端沒得使用這其實也沒辦法對不對但如果我們的製造端生產很少供給端的發電廠一大堆這也有問題對不對"},{"start":145.123,"end":172.378,"text":"那看起來勢必是需要一些總量的調控不管是在供給端或者是在需求端啊現在環保署怎麼做我完全認同所以跟洪委員報告說真的的確這個我去年上任之後我也發現這個問題所以我就有請同仁事實上要去調整以前的一些這個做法因為我們這個經濟學的基本概念嘛共修的概念一定要出來嘛"},{"start":173.558,"end":199.345,"text":"部長可是你看一下上一張是上一張是我們把現在每一個政策工具的環節都列出來看一下齁在製造端的部分其實大概有幾個類型在利用有分公告在利用跟許可在利用跟處理機構基本上公告在利用的部分其實準博是在地方政府許可在利用的部分是經濟部但未來可能會轉成環境部處理機構的部分它的準博權是在地方政府手上"},{"start":200.525,"end":222.902,"text":"這是在製造端,好,使用端呢?使用端它的入園許可是地方政府,電源許可是經濟部它的建造或者是後面設置許可都是在這個地方政府其實在這裡面我們幾乎看不到環境部的角色,有啦,剛剛講說未來可能許可再利用會從經濟部轉到環境部但許可再利用相比於公告再利用其實是少數啊"},{"start":224.505,"end":251.213,"text":"所以在這些環節裡面我們現在看到的狀況是環境部在大推SRF但在真正的管控環節或者是真正的這個政策工具裡面沒有角色啊所以跟黃委員報告這個也是我們現在在這個已經希望能夠把它這個入法就是我們SRF將來要把它當作產品的概念來看的"},{"start":252.133,"end":279.928,"text":"以前接下來就要跟我們一樣分類啦這樣子的話齁你產品從源頭就可以把它分類才不會製造為什麼現在大家對SRF幾乎負面的原因就是因為以前在品質方面前端沒有去管制所以裡面有包括PVC將來使用之後就會產生代號性等等這些問題所以過去累積出來就變成大家對SRF一聽到"},{"start":282.569,"end":303.367,"text":"部長,我請問你一個問題。假如今天在桃園生產的SRF利料能不能夠拉到去其他縣市的SRF發電廠去燒,可不可以?應該可以吧,對不對?也就是說現在我們在SRF裡面大量的管制工具其實掌握在地方政府手上,這是有問題的嘛。"},{"start":305.575,"end":330.015,"text":"我其實一定是需要中央來做相對應的調控嘛不管是供給端或需求端嘛可是我在我的機制設計上面沒看到啊所以部長我想要知道經過了這麼去年相關的爭議案件以後我現在在這些機制上面我要怎麼把環境部的角色給放進去給洪恩報告第一個從以前是書面審查現在變成書面審查現刊跟視音轉三個階段"},{"start":330.976,"end":356.371,"text":"第二個 中央介入 我不能說介入啦 介入不好聽啦 就是說 中央本來該介入啊 我沒有辦法只交給地方啊 我交給地方就是弄到現在遍地烽火啊 除非我們把整個制度面去做改變 就是說 欸 回歸到環境部 或者以現有的法定規章是地方審查 但是中央環境部應該是 來協助啦 現階段過度啦"},{"start":359.048,"end":373.87,"text":"部長再看一下剛剛那張圖我還是要跟大家說在這張圖裡面絕大多數的權責都在地方政府手上我這麼需要中央做一個總量或總體的管控不管是在供給端或需求端的時候"},{"start":374.651,"end":398.644,"text":"我沒有一個明確的工具這已經不是說我中央會來協助我中央會來訪視我中央會來現刊可以解決的問題啦事實上謝謝洪文提到這個問題啦現在SRF變成大家詬病在怪的時候真的都怪中央部長部長我要說今天SRF我願意把它視為它就是一個技術技術重點是用得好的話它可以是一個好的"},{"start":399.224,"end":416.442,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":417.864,"end":418.004,"text":"好,時間到"},{"start":442.458,"end":462.463,"text":"市長,這部份你要多久時間,或者包括... 署長,多久時間可以給我們一個版本來看我們SIRF的管控可以怎麼解決這個問題?各位報告,我們現在目前正在做包括說他一個審查或說我今天在一個稽查的管理,然後想我們在一個月內來提供"},{"start":463.37,"end":492.944,"text":"時間關係,謝謝。"},{"start":493.186,"end":493.548,"text":"徐欣盈"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}