{"error":false,"id":["151306"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151306,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151306","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T12:24:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T12:38:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627f302a41640e62022068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c941a5bdcbe6895c8a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:24:42 - 12:38:26","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時24分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請國防部的邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。我原本今天沒有打算要來，但是看到你來了，我覺得心裡有些話還是要跟你講一下。你是我看過這幾任部長裡面算是很優的部長之一。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：我不敢說你是最優，但你是績優的，為什麼被換下來呢？我先問你的心情是很高興、解脫了，還是……"],["邱部長國正：我……"],["賴委員士葆：你先聽我說，你的感覺是解脫了，還是心裡很鬱卒，覺得有些重要的事情沒有做完，將軍的本色就是替國家做事，使命感沒有達成，心有一點點不甘，到底屬於哪一種？是happy的、高興的、解放了、壓力釋放了，比較好睡覺了，還是覺得壯志未酬。你是屬於哪一種？"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，我現在心真的很平靜，我沒有吹牛；睡不著的原因，我就稱之為枕戈待旦，軍人就是枕戈待旦嘛！至於政策有沒有完成，這不是問題，為什麼？我當初也有很多前面的規定，因為政策有延續性，我今天要推動的工作都是政策擬定的，我離開了，後面的人也一定會推動。假如這個政策我們擬定以後，可能有問題，他去修調，後面他的責任，我不會去過問。所以我沒有特別高興或特別難過，就是很平靜，因為軍人一路走來，拿到人令，就到新單位報到。"],["賴委員士葆：心情沒有任何的起伏？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有高興，也沒有不高興？"],["邱部長國正：都沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：那就很奇怪。"],["邱部長國正：就麻木了。"],["賴委員士葆：麻木了？"],["邱部長國正：不，不，不是麻木，就是情緒很平靜。"],["賴委員士葆：人都有七情六欲，你都沒有，沒有情沒有欲，這個很奇怪！"],["邱部長國正：抱歉，抱歉！不是麻木，是很平靜。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個小問題，你覺得你放心交給顧立雄嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有不放心，跟委員報告，我沒有預設怎麼樣……"],["賴委員士葆：他是接你的人……"],["邱部長國正：我沒有接到任何通知說我要交差給誰，真的沒有，剛剛媒體也在問：你們現在辦交接了？我想什麼東西交接？我沒有看到人令，也沒有聽到哪位長官說你哪一天要交接。"],["賴委員士葆：我今天都問不出什麼，覺得心裡很難過，怎麼這麼沒用，問不出問題來！第三個……"],["邱部長國正：剛剛委員已經問了一個，我就講……"],["賴委員士葆：你看我一開始就誇獎你，你要真的給我回答，不然的話我走不出去啊！"],["邱部長國正：我講麻木，遣詞用語不當，真的很抱歉。"],["賴委員士葆：第三個問題，至少有媒體這樣講，後面幾個帥哥美女這樣寫，他們說之所以交給顧立雄，是顧立雄比較聽美國人的話，你不怎麼聽，你主見太強，是這樣子嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不會，我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：你還是很聽老美的話，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有聽過這種言論，我們曾經也想過，怎麼會聽美國人？國家是我們的，自己的國家自己救，怎麼會聽國外的人呢？但是，我要跟委員報告，任何專家學者所提供的意見，我們都可以做參考，但不代表要聽從。參考的原因在哪裡，如果有做不足的，我們可以參考。"],["賴委員士葆：我再問個小問題，你對文人部長跟你們這些將官部長比較，是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長國正：我坦白跟委員報告，各有利弊。文人部長可以帶領國軍到另外一個比較開闊一點的領域；軍人部長看來就很容易進入狀況，但也比較容易侷限在國防這一塊。所以是各有利弊。"],["賴委員士葆：國防部長本來就侷限在國防……"],["邱部長國正：國防裡面有分軍政、軍令跟軍備，文人部長來了以後，他會很持平地來看這幾個問題。像我一路搞戰備過來的人，我的確也有會偏頗把這些東西放在教育訓練、戰備操演，當然，建軍備戰我們一定要顧，但我在這一方面可能就有所不足。如果是文人的話，他很持平，不是講他不足，但他會請教幾位副部長跟總長，因為每一位副部長……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你認為文人部長會比將軍部長好？是不是這個意思？"],["邱部長國正：不是好不好的問題，就是各有利弊。"],["賴委員士葆：是各有利弊，還是半斤八兩？"],["邱部長國正：也不能講半斤八兩，就是各有利弊。"],["賴委員士葆：你總是要講一下，要有個結論啊！"],["邱部長國正：這好像沒有個結論吧，因為它還沒定案，我也不知道……"],["賴委員士葆：定案了啦，怎麼沒有定案！你看顧立雄笑成這樣！"],["邱部長國正：我沒有接到通知。"],["賴委員士葆：我看到媒體說他準備接了。"],["邱部長國正：媒體報的歸媒體報，我們真的沒有看到人令或告知我哪一天要交差……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你最近去了衡山指揮所幾次？"],["邱部長國正：我大概每個禮拜六、禮拜天都會去。"],["賴委員士葆：都會去嘛！以後顧立雄部長會不會去不知道，但至少你去了，大家感覺會服氣，因為你懂啊！顧立雄去的話，大家心裡想你又不懂，就差不多、差不多，大家心裡會這樣想！"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，能不能讓我講一下，我去的原因很簡單，最近這幾年來，我很難離開臺北指揮所這地方，因為有時候敵情變化，我的個性是人在會比較放心。事實上平常不管總長或是各軍種司令或各駐外區指揮官都要看部隊；我這樣做的原因，是因為我在這一塊比較欠缺，假設以前部長他能夠這樣到附近去看的話，我可能也就沒有必要在禮拜六、禮拜天進去跟他們視訊會議了，就沒這個必要。"],["賴委員士葆：你會不會期待以後顧立雄跟你一樣，每個禮拜六、禮拜天去一下衡山指揮所？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有這種期待，因為以前哪怕軍方出來擔任部長，也不見得每個禮拜會去，就每個人做法不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我才欣賞你嘛！只有你每個禮拜去！老實講，光這一點就不應該換你啦，對不對？這麼認真，這麼打拚，這麼專業，把你換掉，真的好奇怪。"],["邱部長國正：委員抬愛啦！不過講真話，這個軍政軍令跟軍備各有這個其職掌……"],["賴委員士葆：你有你的看法，我有我的看法，過去軍政軍令是分開的，所以軍政由文人來做還可以，軍令的這個參謀總長在一元化之後，參謀總長要聽國防部長的，感覺部長可以隨時override參謀總長，這時候他的軍事素養就很重要了。"],["邱部長國正：通常部長會尊重軍令部門，軍政跟軍備……"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼知道，你又不是顧立雄！我再問你潛艦的問題，我們現在總共是要做8艘還是七艘？"],["邱部長國正：未來總共8艘。"],["賴委員士葆：港試─港裡面的試驗，什麼時候做完？"],["邵參事維揚：H AT 部分現在已經開始執行中。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦！什麼時候結束finished？"],["邵參事維揚：什麼時候finished，現在沒辦法跟委員報告，因為我們一項一項都要過。"],["賴委員士葆：我聽到的是，預估今年年底可以做完港試？"],["邵參事維揚：我們現在已經在做港試了。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講是結束啦！"],["邵參事維揚：每一個人都有想法，但是我們海軍基本上在品質跟安全要求下才能過。"],["賴委員士葆：對不起，憲法規定你來這裡要講實話，你要講實話！"],["邵參事維揚：我講的是實話，我們工程人員一定是一項一項都要做完才能往下走，我們不敢……"],["賴委員士葆：我能不能這樣講，最可能年底可以完成港試？most likely可以嗎？"],["邵參事維揚：這是我們大家的期望。"],["賴委員士葆：海試什麼時候開始做？"],["邵參事維揚：港試做完之後，我們繼續執行海試。"],["賴委員士葆：海試要做多久？"],["邵參事維揚：海試也是要看科目。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看了資料，還問了陳永康大將軍，這一點他比你們懂很多，我常常去跟他學習，跟他學很多功課，我從你們那裡得不到答案，他那裡都有答案。"],["邱部長國正：我們也跟陳委員得到很多答案。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！多跟他請教潛水艇的事情是對的。姓陳名永康，as long as，別名叫做作潛艦！專家中的專家，你們要多問他，就不會搞成「灰灑灑」這樣子！海試做完了，才能夠去打仗，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["賴委員士葆：我們很期待。我再問一個很外行但很重要的問題，你期待什麼時候這8艘可以開始服役，most likely？"],["邵參事維揚：報告，每一條船交完艦之後，成軍訓練完，它就正式加入……"],["賴委員士葆：好，那第一艘什麼時候？"],["邵參事維揚：應該是明年。"],["賴委員士葆：明年就可以正式了？"],["邵參事維揚：sorry，是明年交艦。"],["賴委員士葆：所以裡面的紅區什麼設備都有？是完整有攻擊能力的？"],["邵參事維揚：一定有攻擊能力，不然沒辦法通過我們港試，然後做海試，一定是全部都配備完之後才能做的。"],["賴委員士葆：你的意思是第一艘的海試明年就做完了，有這麼快嗎？"],["邵參事維揚：我們希望，也是我們期盼。"],["賴委員士葆：我剛剛問陳將軍，他不是這樣講的，沒有這麼快！OK、OK，是我聽錯了，將軍不要生氣！我所瞭解的，海試其實還要一段時間，所以真正能夠開始去打仗、服役，不是2025，大概是2026。請問，我這樣猜測對不對？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，我們期望，我們大家努力，也沒有說預定一定要哪一年哪一月，為什麼不敢做這個確定？因為測試是很重要的關鍵，一有問題要改進，改進之後，後面會延宕，我們也不希望延宕，但誰也都不敢保證它不延宕，我們期望能如期如質的完成，完成之後，經過訓練就加入戰鬥的序列；但你現在要我講最後時間，哪一年幾月會完成，真的答不出來。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一個小問題，8艘潛艦如果統統都能夠服役，是不是夠了？還是未來仍需要建更多的潛艦，來保衛整個臺灣的安全？"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，基本上我們是從潛艦整體的戰力來去看這件事情，如果到那個時間點，我們前面兩艘劍龍級可能也超過40年了，可能也要汰換。所以我們認為潛艦應該是一艘一艘建造出來，才能夠滿足我們海軍的需求。"],["賴委員士葆：我把結論講完就結束。8艘是不是夠在短、中期裡面維護臺海的安全？8艘夠了，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：這個問題，我要跟委員報告8艘不夠，誠如剛剛所講的，我們的戰力希望越整備越強，彈藥也好，兵力也好，要越來越多，多到什麼地步？若超過我們的能力，多也沒有意義，但至少我們有這基本的額度以後，可以做好我們的防衛作戰，最起碼可以守住我們臺灣的安全。我想這個東西沒有什麼夠不夠的，譬如用任何的裝備，它可能都會壞，一壞了，後面就要持續……"],["賴委員士葆：經費大概就是你們寫的2,800億7艘，所以8艘的話是三千多億？"],["主席：因為時間的關係，請簡單回復。"],["賴委員士葆：就回答一下。"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，2,800億的部分，海軍都還沒講，我們還在努力計算中，所以我也不曉得那部分怎麼出來的。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體亂寫的，是嗎？"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請李柏毅委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.7690937500000001,"end":2.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.492843750000002,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.387218750000002,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.812843750000003,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.394718750000003,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.086593750000002,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.980968750000002,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.96346875,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.313468750000002,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.76909375,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.11909375,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.814718750000004,"end":34.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.99596875,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.299093750000004,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.704093750000006,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.55159375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.93534375,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.728468750000005,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.74534375,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.76221875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.98159375,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.799718750000004,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.305968750000005,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.212843750000005,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.83971875,"end":65.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.94471875,"end":69.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.19721875,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.96909375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.13346875,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.58909375,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.98971875000001,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.03596875000001,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.04846875,"end":79.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.61346875000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.75534375000001,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.19346875000001,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.52096875000001,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.96284375,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.90971875000001,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.52096875,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.70659375,"end":132.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.65159375000002,"end":135.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.13221875000002,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.00971875000002,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.80284375000002,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker"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你的媽啦"},{"start":364.82,"end":371.104,"text":"我去的原因很簡單,因為我們最近這幾年來,我很難離開臺北指揮所這個地方因為有一個敵情的變化,大概我的個性,人在乎比較放心事實上平常看部隊,不管總長或者各軍總的司令或各專區指揮官,他們都在看部隊"},{"start":394.777,"end":419.67,"text":"那我這樣做原因在哪裡?因為我在這一塊比較欠缺。假設以前部長他能夠這樣到部隊去看的話,我可能也就沒有必要在禮拜六禮拜天第1個港中視訊會議了。就沒這個必要。你會不會期待以後顧立雄跟你一樣每個禮拜六禮拜天去一下衡山市會所?不是,我沒有這種期待。為什麼?因為以前部長哪怕軍方出來擔任部長,他也不見得是每個禮拜會去。"},{"start":420.871,"end":427.817,"text":"所以每個人做法不一樣所以我才欣賞你嘛 光這個的話老實講就不應該換你啦對不對 這麼認真這麼怕扁 專業 要把你換掉好奇怪這抱怨委員台愛啦 不過講真話喔 這個軍政軍令跟軍備各有這個執掌你有你的看法 我有我的看法 過去軍政軍令是分開的"},{"start":446.414,"end":473.941,"text":"所以軍政是文人來做還可以軍令這個參謀總長現在是議員化參謀總長是聽你的聽國防部長的那種感覺這個東西等於是等於是部長可以隨時overwrite參謀總長啊這個他的一個軍事適用就很重要啊不一樣啊部長會尊重軍令部門啦就跟軍聖跟軍備你也知道你又不是鼓勵熊你也知道對不對"},{"start":476.916,"end":481.818,"text":"來,我問你今天潛艦的問題我們現在總共是要做8艘還是7艘?總共8艘總共在未來啦港式什麼時候做完?港式港裡面的試驗啦來來來HAT部分現在已經開始執行中"},{"start":496.994,"end":500.138,"text":"我聽到了說今年年底一股今年年底可以做完港式是不是?"},{"start":509.554,"end":514.799,"text":"我講的是說工程人員,我們一定一項一項都要做完才能往下走,我們不敢……我能不能這樣講,最可能年底可以完成港式,可以嗎?最可能,most likely,可以嗎?"},{"start":538.116,"end":565.063,"text":"這是我們大家的期望期望不是最可能好海事什麼時候開始做港事做完之後我們繼續執行海事海事要做多久海事也是要看科目我們看到資料還有問了我們大將軍陳永康大將軍這一點他比你們懂很多我們幾乎常常去跟他學習跟他學很多功課你們都我都從裡面來得不到答案他讓你都有答案"},{"start":568.214,"end":577.118,"text":"我必須跟陳偉得到什麼答案對啊 多跟他請教潛水艇的事情請教他就對了對不對 陳姓陳名永康Authnumous 這個別名叫做潛艦專家 專家 中國專家你要多問他對不對 就不會搞成這樣子好像看起來NAU灰煞煞這樣子的齁"},{"start":594.189,"end":620.212,"text":"還是做完了才能夠去打仗嘛對不對?對好 那我們雖然期待我就問一下很外行但是很重要什麼時候這巴騷可以開始服役?應該是分...Most likely好不好你期待什麼時候可以服役?報告每一條船交完件之後成軍訓練完他就正式加入好 那第一條什麼時候?應該是明年明年就可以正式了?"},{"start":621.258,"end":643.812,"text":"明年交建所以裡面的紅區什麼設備都有是完整的有攻擊能力的一定有攻擊能力不然沒辦法通過我們港式然後再做海事一定是全部都配備完的時候才能做的那你的意思是第一艘海事明年就做完囉有這麼快嗎我們希望也是我們期盼"},{"start":646.087,"end":671.397,"text":"我剛問陳將軍不是這樣講的我聽錯了將軍不要生氣我聽錯了我所了解的啦齁還是其實還要一段時間啦所以你真正能夠開始去打仗去服役大概不是2025啦大概2026我這樣猜測對不對請問"},{"start":677.175,"end":698.745,"text":"報告委員,我們很想期望嘛,我們大家努力嘛,也沒有講說一定一定要哪一年哪一月,為什麼不敢做這個確定呢?因為測試是個很重要的一個關鍵,因為問題叫改進,改進後面會延宕,我們也不期望延宕,但能不能保證它不延宕?"},{"start":699.773,"end":705.194,"text":"最後一個小問題巴沙的潛艦如果通通能夠服役是不是夠了還是未來需要再建更多的潛艦來保衛整個台灣的安全"},{"start":726.844,"end":746.04,"text":"報告委員因為基本上我們是看潛艦整體的戰力來去看這件事情那如果到那個時間點的話我們前面兩艘艦載機可能也超過40年了它也可能要到汰換所以我們認為潛艦應該是就一艘一艘建造出來才能夠滿足我們海軍的需求"},{"start":746.46,"end":768.29,"text":"所以大概可以,我就是結論講完,我就下去了。爆炒是不是夠在短時間或者短中期裡面維護台海的安全?爆炒夠了是不是?這就可以嗎?這問題我要跟委員做爆炒。爆炒不夠,什麼叫夠?我們有戰力的希望,越整備越強。"},{"start":769.951,"end":786.598,"text":"對,彈藥也好,冰液也好,越來越多,但多到什麼地步,要超過我們的能力的,多也沒有意義,但至少我們有這樣基本的額度以後,可以做好我們防衛作戰,最起碼可以守住我們的臺灣的安全。"},{"start":787.378,"end":790.78,"text":"金費大概就是你們寫的2817艘所以等於8艘的話是3000多億時間的關係簡單回覆就好"},{"start":810.233,"end":820.886,"text":"報告委員2800億海軍都還沒講我們現在還正在努力的計算中所以說那是我也不曉得怎麼出來啦媒體內寫的是吧好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}