{"error":false,"id":["151322"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151322,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151322","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T12:47:23+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T12:58:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162743287d10086c25d8068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c947074d07a482e87785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:47:23 - 12:58:01","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時47分）謝謝。麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：邱部長，今天非常多委員都很關心我們潛艦國造的部分，其實從馬政府時代開始推動，到蔡英文政府八年的時間，我想朝野一定都支持，希望我們自己的國防要有足夠而且堅強的戰力，我們也認為潛艦國造這個方向是應該要做的；但是本席剛剛聽到計畫等於預算，我覺得很納悶。"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，他們不是講等於，是計畫出來要等著預算，才能處理；不是等於。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以，我才覺得奇怪，剛剛怎麼會突然講到計畫然後等於預算，我想這樣就不對了。"],["邱部長國正：不是，不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。本席現在要強調的是，外界有提到2,800億，我不是外交及國防委員會的委員，所以我是看媒體報導，99%的國人當然也是看媒體報導，這2,800億剛剛有很多人在討論，涉及機密的部分你不用回答；但是我要這樣請教，你剛剛一直在說這個有可能是粗估也不一定，現在還在核算，所以也不會講，而且你在上午回答說，2,800除以7的話，這也不公允，對不對？那有可能會比2,800億還要高嗎？如果未來我們要做完七艘，甚至還要增加設備、裝備等等，所以有可能低，也有可能高，是不是？"],["邵參事維揚：報告，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：雖然外界譁然，說這樣平均下來，一艘差不多要400億比原型艦還要貴，但有可能以後真的核算出來，也許原物料上漲，也許有什麼樣的設備要再把它加入，所以之後我們這七艘，如果照賴清德總統當選人說我們要一次做的話，會比2,800億還要高，有可能3,000億以上？"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，原型艦的成本跟後續艦的成本是會有差異的，差異的部分有各個因素，有增有減，例如原型艦的裝備，所謂的NRE首艦的建造設計費用會拿掉……"],["洪委員孟楷：一次性的費用會拿掉。"],["邵參事維揚：如果構型沒改變，這個費用就不會再列計，廠商若要列計，我們也不會同意；但是物價指數、通膨指數是往上漲的，包含人工的費用也是往上漲的；另外還有一種叫做學習曲線的部分，學習後它會往下掉，所以各種因素在裡面，它會去做一個平衡，我們都有一系列的公式去估算。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啦，你講的是common sense，而這個點一出來，也是國人會譁然、訝異的嘛！照理講，我們希望打造第一個原型艦的時候，它是一個高規格指標，指標訂立之後，大家覺得可以，合格了，未來七艘我們都是以這個指標來當作標準去做，當然國人會想：一開始你把標準做出來，後續的部分，成本應該可以遞減，至少是一樣的、大概的；但你現在講成本反而有可能會高於原型艦？"],["邵參事維揚：我剛剛跟委員報告，它有不同的參數，有的是往上漲，有的是往下……"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦。因為現在的重點在於你現在講的2,800都還不是最終數字，有可能低，也有可能高。","第二個部分，大家都有討論到潛艦召集人黃曙光，其實他在去年9月曾提到，希望潛艦原型艦通過HAT之後，能夠帶著原型艦測試隊伍展開出海測試，即SAT，現在我們的原型艦HAT也還沒有，可是他在這個時候就離開了，請辭了；媒體報導說部長也是之後才知道的消息。"],["邱部長國正：對，因為他之前跟哪個請辭，我不知道，後來我聽說有那麼一件事，今天早上媒體都公告很清楚，連同多少字寫出來，我才知道，好像沒有先知快報這件事。我特別也表達我對他的肯定。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我有看到您對他的肯定，但不只是本席，我相信國人也好奇，畢竟過去都是黃曙光召集人，他在於潛艦國造這部分付出非常大的心血，而且他也講過希望帶著原型艦能夠SAT，甚至希望能把原型艦交給我們的海軍，讓海軍真的能夠來運作、使用；現在怎麼會一有點將志未捷的感覺？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，大家很關心，如果他離開後，是不是這個工作就停頓了。我特別跟委員報告，這個專案小組同時繼續存在，他在這個推動過程當中，全專案小組都參與……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席當然認同我們國家的重大政策也不能因為任何一個人離開，我們就不做了嘛！所以小組一定存在，專業一定存在，甚至我們希望潛艦國造最基本的功能是什麼？就是把技術留下來！"],["邱部長國正：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：畢竟各位將領、各位官兵，大家也都會有退休的一天，但至少我們的技術能夠持續延下來，這才是潛艦國造最基本的精神。今天早上行政院長陳建仁居然說打抱不平，對於黃曙光請辭，媒體標題說努力，但受到抹黑、打壓。因為您是國防部長，本席的概念，至少對國防內部的事情，您算是第一個主官，黃曙光不是跟您請辭？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，他沒有跟我請辭。"],["洪委員孟楷：那他有跟陳建仁請辭嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：那陳建仁怎麼會突然說：他是努力，但受到抹黑、打壓，有嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我實在答不出來，因為我也像局外人一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，另外一個部分，我覺得您就不應該是局外人了。剛剛有委員也問過，六天前在轉型正義開會的時候，陳建仁院長特別指示國防部應該在一個月內完成籌設軍中轉型正義教育外部專家諮詢小組，他的目的是要國防部對軍事人員養成教育方面應該儘速辦理，這是六天前的新聞，不是昨天的新聞；可是剛剛有委員在質詢您的時候，您也說您不清楚這個事情。"],["邱部長國正：對，因為我們的法律司通常都會去參與，如果有重大事項會跟我回報，但是這……"],["洪委員孟楷：顯然是認為院長的這件事情不夠重大，所以沒有在第一時間跟部長講……"],["邱部長國正：因為他有跟我提過假如要成立，我說好，但是要按照這個規定，找專業人員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果我們要做，也要有事情做嘛！院長特別指示軍事人員養成教育，我想請教部長，現在我們的養成教育出了什麼問題，要院長以院長的高度，在轉型正義委員會裡面特別指示國防部，特別點名國防部：你們要針對你們的軍事人員養成教育，究竟出了什麼問題？"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員做一個說明，轉型正義諮詢委員會，相關的部會都要成立，國防部在這個成立的機制上……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊，本席看到行政院新聞稿特別指示，特別把國防部給點名出來。"],["沈司長世偉：我們的那個諮詢委員會到現在還沒有成立，院長希望我們在一個月之內，要把相關的諮詢委員等等找齊，我們國防部會……"],["洪委員孟楷：你還是沒有回答到本席的問題，我成立一個單位，一定是因為現在有什麼樣的問題，我需要去做處理跟解決，我成立潛艦國造小組，是因為我們現在沒有潛艦國造的能力，而且我們認為我們的國防必須要有不對稱的作戰，所以我們成立潛艦國造！一樣的，我們現在軍事人員的教育養成到底有什麼問題，需要我們再成立一個小組？這個小組成立之後，要人、要錢、要預算、要目標、要計劃，他們要做什麼？"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員報告，是大院通過的那個轉型正義條例裡面，有一些部會就這個部分要做推動，國防部有被規劃，所以我們要成立一個諮詢小組，就是未來的推動，可能要去諮詢一些外部專家委員的意見，因為我們的諮詢小組還沒有成立，院裡面希望我們就這個部分能在一個月之內有一個進度。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在還有多少個部會沒有成立？"],["沈司長世偉：那天是在一個與教育相關的分工裡面……"],["洪委員孟楷：那天主要是文化部來報告嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：有好幾個部會去報告。我們在這個部分會照著院裡面的指示，去找一些專家學者，把這個諮詢小組成立起來。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛聽到部長的答詢，本席也在這裡要求不要假轉型正義之名，行政治意識灌輸之實！本席講得很含蓄！本席希望國防部是中華民國的國防部，國防部是捍衛臺灣2,350萬人的國防部，絕對不是任何一個政黨，或是任何一個政府的國防部，請不要假藉轉型正義之名，行政治意識灌輸之實。我想這一點是本席給國防部所有將官弟兄們由衷的忠告。我再次強調，每一次我都會別著中華民國國旗在左胸，就是因為我認為我們的國防很重要，我們的外交很重要，如果任何人只是做政治意識型態的這種操作或攻防，很抱歉，我們絕對不會客氣，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","請羅智強委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":2.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.746593750000002,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.73221875,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.95784375,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.10534375,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.80971875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.06284375,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.80534375,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.665968750000005,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.12159375,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.572843750000004,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.53471875,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.63596875,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.65284375,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.445968750000006,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.23846875,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.07784375,"end":51.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.40034375,"end":93.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.17221875,"end":96.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.06659375000001,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.61909375,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.39534375000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.84096875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.51784375000001,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.56846875000001,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.69909375,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.79159375,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.10346875000002,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.46596875,"end":132.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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朱部長我想今天非常多委員都關心我們潛艦國造的部分其實從馬政府時代開始推動到蔡英文政府8年的時間我想朝野一定都共同支持我們希望我們自己的國防要有足夠的一個堅強的戰力我們也認為是說潛艦國造這個方向是應該要做但是剛剛本時有聽到一個說計劃等於預算"},{"start":35.896,"end":37.476,"text":"我不是外交國防委員會委員所以說我也當然是看媒體報導但是"},{"start":63.241,"end":86.196,"text":"國人95% 99%的國人都是看媒體報導2800億剛剛很多人在討論涉及機密的部分你不用回答但是我現在請教所以你剛剛一直在講是說有可能這個是初估也不一定現在還在核算所以也不會講而且你有上午的回答講說2800除以7的話這也不公允對不對好那有可能會比2800億還要高嗎"},{"start":88.337,"end":107.302,"text":"如果說未來我們要做完7艘那甚至還有說增加設備裝備等等所以有可能低也有可能高是不是報告4所以說2800雖然講是說外界華蘭是說怎麼這樣平均下來一艘差不多400億那可能會覺得是說還比原型艦還要貴"},{"start":109.199,"end":109.359,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":127.873,"end":156.225,"text":"原型艦的成本跟後續艦的成本是會有差異的那差異的部分其實各個因素有增有減例如原型艦的裝備所謂的NRE就是首艦的設計費用他就是會拿掉的就一次性的費用拿掉嘛他會拿掉但是如果構型沒改變這個費用我們就不會再劣跡廠商要劣跡我們也不會同意他"},{"start":157.225,"end":177.575,"text":"但是物價的指數上面通膨指數上面他是往上漲的那也包含了人工的費用也是往上漲的但是另外還有一種叫做學習曲線的部分他是學習後他會往下掉的所以各種因素在裡面他會去做一個平衡我們都有一系列的公式去估算"},{"start":177.915,"end":205.187,"text":"是啦 你講的是common sense所以說這一點也是國人一出來之後會划然或是會覺得訝異嘛就照理講我們希望是說打造第一個原型艦的時候它可能它是一個高規格指標指標定力大家覺得說可以合格了未來七艘我們都是以這個指標來當作是一個標準來去做那當然國人會想是說你一開始你把標準做出來後續的部分應該是成本可以遞減或說至少成本是一樣的"},{"start":206.047,"end":223.563,"text":"大概的但你現在講是說成本反而有可能會高於原型艦我剛剛跟委員報告不同的參數他有的是往上漲有的是往下漲可是因為現在重點在於是你現在講2800都還不是一個最終所以有可能低但是也有可能高"},{"start":225.712,"end":251.584,"text":"再來第二個部分大家也都有討論到潛艦召集人這個黃曙光他其實在去年9月的時候他有提到他說希望潛艦原型艦能通過HAT之後他也希望能夠帶著原型艦測試隊伍展開出海測試也就是SAT那現在我們的原型艦HAT也還沒有SAT可是他這個時候他就離開了請辭了"},{"start":254.665,"end":261.066,"text":"而且部長好像看媒體報導講說部長還是你之後才知道的消息對 因為他之前"},{"start":262.602,"end":270.968,"text":"是,我有看到您對他的肯定,但我只是本席我相信國人也好奇就是說因為畢竟過去都是黃曙光召集了他一個等於是說他對於潛艦國在那邊付出非常大的心血嘛"},{"start":293.343,"end":307.903,"text":"但是他也講過他希望是帶著原型艦能夠SAT甚至他也希望是說能夠把原型艦交給我們的海軍讓海軍真的能夠來做運作來做使用但是怎麼有點這個降至未竭的感覺"},{"start":309.51,"end":334.5,"text":"我跟委員報告大家很關心假如他一離開以後是這個工作就停頓了我特別跟委員報告因為專案小組同時俱存的他在這個推動工作當中是全專案小組人都參與本席當然認同我們國家的重大政策也不能因為任何一個人離開我們就不做了嘛所以小組一定存在專業一定存在甚至我們希望潛艦國造最基本的功能是什麼"},{"start":335.18,"end":358.513,"text":"就是把技術留下來啊就是當有一天各位將領各位官兵大家也都會退休的一天的時候但至少我們的技術持續延長這才是潛艦國造最基本的精神嘛那今天早上行政院長陳建仁他居然說打抱不平啊他說這個黃曙光請辭他陳建仁媒體標題是說努力但受到抹黑打壓"},{"start":361.21,"end":377.825,"text":"那請教部長因為您是國防部長本席的概念是你至少國防內部的事情您算是第一個主管 主官嘛黃曙光請辭不是跟您請辭沒有 他沒有跟我請辭那他有跟陳建仁請辭嗎"},{"start":378.979,"end":381.001,"text":"另外一個部份我覺得您就不應該是局外人了"},{"start":395.673,"end":415.723,"text":"6天前剛我們有委員有問過6天前在轉型正義的開會的時候陳建仁院長特別指示國防部應該在一個月內完成籌設軍中轉型正義教育外部專家諮詢小組那他的目的是什麼他的目的是說"},{"start":417.932,"end":432.96,"text":"要國防部對軍事人員養成教育方面應該盡速辦理這是六天前的新聞這不是昨天的新聞可是剛剛部長有委員質詢您的時候你也說你不清楚這個事情"},{"start":433.44,"end":456.401,"text":"因為他參與我們法律師通常都會與他們去但他有重大會跟我回報但這你家還在很顯然認為說院長這個是不夠重大所以沒有第一時間跟部長講要成立我也好但按照這個規定要做好專業人員要做也要有事情做"},{"start":457.728,"end":464.618,"text":"那院長特別指示說軍事人員養成教育那我想請教現在我們養成教育出了什麼問題"},{"start":465.854,"end":466.334,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":488.831,"end":489.931,"text":"你還是沒有回答到本席的問題嘛"},{"start":510.057,"end":522.834,"text":"我成立一個單位我一定是因為現在有什麼樣的問題我需要來去做處理跟解決嘛我成立潛艦國造小組是因為我們現在沒有潛艦國造的能力而且我們認為說我們的國防必須要有不對稱的作戰所以我們成立潛艦國造"},{"start":524.36,"end":524.46,"text":"國防部有備規劃"},{"start":546.63,"end":547.971,"text":"所以現在還有多少個部會沒有成立?"},{"start":567.284,"end":593.393,"text":"那天是在一個教育的相關的分工裏面那天是文化部主要來報告嗎有好幾個部會去報告是我們這個部分是我們會照院裏面的指示去找一些專家學者把這個資訊小組把它成立起來本席剛剛有聽到部長的一個答詢本席也是要求就是說不要假轉型正義之名行政治意識灌輸之實"},{"start":595.053,"end":621.442,"text":"本席講得很含蓄但是本席希望國防部是中華民國的國防部國防部是捍衛台灣2350萬人的國防部絕對不是任何一個政黨或是任何一個政府的國防部也因此不要假借轉型正義之名行政治意識灌輸之時我想這一點是本席給國防部所有的將官弟兄們由衷的忠告"},{"start":622.022,"end":637.824,"text":"謝偉"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}