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13:08:00","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時58分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。今天國防部的專案報告題目是潛艦國造目前進度的報告，但是現在我們最重要的背後推手，潛艦國造專案的召集人、國安會諮詢委員黃曙光昨天突然對外證實提出辭呈，請問部長，黃曙光有跟您知會嗎？你是何時得知這個消息的？"],["邱部長國正：他沒有跟我知會的問題啦，我也是昨天晚上有耳聞，聽說他好像提出請辭，然後總統還沒有批等等，今天早上看到報紙確定，而他也寫了一篇感言，我是看到之後才知道。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教的是，總統沒有慰留他嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道，我真的……"],["羅委員智強：我想問一個問題，您是國防部長，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員智強：國防事務基本上都是你的業務，對不對？我想請教你，你覺得黃曙光作為潛艦國造專案召集人，他稱職嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員多講兩句，我跟他有幾度的共事機會，我的感覺就是他做事情認真負責。像這種人員，他到任何地方，他都會稱職，而且認真負責。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["邱部長國正：也就是認真負責會讓他稱職，但因為稱職，他會更加地認真負責，這是我對他的看法。"],["羅委員智強：認真負責、稱職的人最後身心俱疲要離開，總統也沒有慰留他。"],["邱部長國正：我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：至少沒有看到新聞訊息。請問到底是為什麼？是因為他稱職，還是他不稱職呢？我要特別講，潛艦國造不是兒戲啊！今天專案召集人就這樣子不見了，那我就想請教一個。剛剛我們部長也說非常尊敬他嘛！說他專業嘛！你會不會可以去跟我們，不管是現在的總統，還是未來的總統說一下、問一下，未來潛艦國造還要不要借重黃曙光的專才？還是就讓他卸甲歸田，就不用理他了？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有這個權力同意他或不同意他，但我講一個老袍澤的……"],["羅委員智強：您作為一個國防部長，你肯定他的專業……"],["邱部長國正：對，我肯定。"],["羅委員智強：為了潛艦國造計畫的延續性。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員智強：那你要不要跟我們現在的總統還有未來的總統建議一下？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我大概不會這樣建議，因為他等於是諮詢委員，跟我不是一個系列，我沒有權責去做這個建議。另外我跟他接觸，我也鼓舞我們專案人員要跟他保持接觸，因為他畢竟付出很大的心力，也很專業。我想，帶領專案團隊一路走來，一定有很多意見交換，再加上溝通，我想這個袍澤之情應該是可以持續，不會因為他職務不做了，就沒了，我想這是可以持續來保持聯絡的，也是高層工作推動很有幫助的一股助力嘛！"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員智強：我的結論很簡單啦！潛艦國造這麼重要的事情，我感覺連專案召集人都可以這麼草率地，發個聲明，然後身心俱疲就離開了，那國人怎麼樣嚴肅看待這麼重要的一個國防案子呢？所以我真的也是呼籲我們的民進黨政府，不要連最基本的人事都輕忽。","我想請教下一個，可以從媒體資訊看到，國造潛艦專案小組要解編，總統府跟國安會要設立先進國防事務辦公室，推動潛艦後續的打造，也要推動新一代的武器建購。先進國防事務辦公室對於國造潛艦工作，有一說就是潛艦主導權要回歸國防部及海軍司令部，那後續工作會由誰來完成？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這個先進國防事務辦公室早上媒體有問我，我還真的沒聽到過，我到目前都還沒有聽到過，所以我也不了解什麼叫先進國防事務辦公室。但將來不管這個工作由誰接手、不接手，專案小組是存在的，他們有很多不管節點的管控或者工作推動，它會持續做的，至於是哪個單位主導？當然是國防部嘛！國防部要負全責嘛！國防部把這個責任交給海軍，因為海軍是專業嘛！而且將來他們的戰力要用的嘛！這個層層節制的這種組織概念，那是不會變的。"],["羅委員智強：我也是認同剛剛部長講的，我覺得基本上潛艦國造不是在玩文字遊戲……"],["邱部長國正：不是。"],["羅委員智強：你講一個好像很炫、很酷的名字，叫先進國防事務辦公室，根本本質潛艦國造專案小組……如果是運作上它就有過去運作的機制的話，怎麼換一個總統，你就要把這機制……連召集人都不見了！都不見了！然後這個機制你也要重新去動！所以我剛剛第二遍說潛艦國造不是兒戲，這才是我今天要跟我們政府特別呼籲的。","第三個，我要問一下我們的部長。因為蔡總統在進行國政交接，她有帶賴清德總統當選人看潛艦國造海鯤號的進度。之前新聞也寫說，賴清德聽完簡報，當場表示後續7艘潛艦不必分批建造，要一次完成。我想請教一下部長，實務上做得到嗎？一次完成？"],["邱部長國正：所謂一次，就是一樣要一艘或兩艘一起來嘛！不是講一下子7艘通通進度一模一樣，這是一個解讀的問題。我們沒有講說能不能完成，我覺得建軍就這樣子，你預算足夠，而且獲得管道沒有任何疑慮的話，那沒有什麼東西完成不了。但是時間的長短就要看實際運作狀況。"],["羅委員智強：其實剛剛部長回答裡面就不是一次完成嘛！我覺得作為一位未來的總統，說真的講話語意要清楚，不要引起誤解，你講一次造7艘，先不講這天價的預算，更重要的是，請問生產線、廠辦，還有所有的人力、專業的支撐都是問題吧？部長。我們有這麼大的量能一次造7艘嗎？像你剛剛講，其實所謂一次造7艘還是得分批造啦！是不是這個意思？"],["邱部長國正：對。我覺得這個遣詞用語，因為好像每個人對於「一次」的講法，會造成大家來討論。像剛剛陳委員也給我們建議，我覺得這建議很好，「一系列」。我們以後軍方會有這個方法，但是不外乎也一定要按部就班地來嘛！"],["羅委員智強：所以我跟部長說，你一次開7條生產線、人員、機具、物料，我就問部長一個問題，他說一次造7艘，有跟你商量過嗎？沒有？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為這是一個表達，我們不去做一個……"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，我當過總統府副秘書長，兩岸國防、外交也是我們當時在總統府的核心幕僚的工作之一。這麼重大的事情，真的不能夠當兒戲一樣親口就隨便說出來。如果說在以前總統要談這麼重大的潛艦國造問題的話，他一定會找部長的嘛！不是嗎？他一定會找今天國防相關專業的單位來去商量過之後，才會說出今天到底我們潛艦國造未來的方向，而不是今天龍心大悅，一句聖裁！賴清德聖裁，然後整個潛艦國造原來走的既定進程就要被帶著走，這不是一個專業的事情。","最後我跟各位說，我覺得民進黨政府在潛艦國造的事情，最近的發展就3個兒戲。黃曙光說走就走，就是一個兒戲嘛！然後專案辦公室又搞出一個什麼先進國防辦公室，第2個兒戲。第3個兒戲就是，你既有進程能夠把它完成，我們就按部就班走，這是一個穩健的國防政策，賴清德就很兒戲地講，聖裁出來說一次要蓋7艘啊！那不就造成今天軍方的困擾，造成我們國防單位的困擾，也造成我們人民的疑慮！所以拜託！身為總統、未來的總統，真的發言要謹慎。以上。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請林憶君、林憶君、林憶君委員不在。","我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、王鴻薇委員、邱志偉委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.00471875,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.759718750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.99846875,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.08284375,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.41346875000001,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.01659375,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.17659375000001,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.22721875,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.54721875,"end":81.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.05096875000001,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.19034375000001,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.80159375000001,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.05034375000001,"end":121.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.61534375000001,"end":125.53034375000001}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對不對國防事務基本上都是你的業務 對不對"},{"start":81.872,"end":103.441,"text":"那我想請教你你覺得黃素光作為潛艦國造專案的召集人他稱職嗎我跟委員報多講兩句我跟他有幾度的共識的一個機會我的感覺就是他做事情認真負責像這種人員他到任何地方他都會稱職而且認真負責你就認真負責會讓他稱職但越稱職他會更加的認真負責所以我對他看法"},{"start":108.443,"end":125.263,"text":"認真負責稱職的人最後身心俱疲要離開總統也沒有慰留他至少沒有看到新聞訊息那請問到底是為什麼是因為他稱職還是他不稱職呢我要特別講就是說這潛艦國造不是兒戲啊"},{"start":126.497,"end":146.888,"text":"今天專案召集人就這樣子不見了那我就想請教一個那剛剛這個我們部長也說非常尊重非常尊敬他嘛就他專業嘛你會不會可以去跟我們不管是現在的總統還是未來的總統說一下問一下那還要不要借重黃樹光的專產未來潛艦國造還是就讓他這個卸甲歸田"},{"start":153,"end":169.514,"text":"我沒有這個權利就同意他或不同意他但我想說您作為一個國防部長你覺得你肯定他的專業為了潛艦國造的所謂的計畫的延續性那你要不要能夠跟我們現在的這個總統還有未來的總統"},{"start":174.058,"end":193.33,"text":"我跟委員報告,我大概不會這樣建議,因為他等於諮詢委員,跟我不是一個系列,我沒有這個權責去做這個建議。另外我跟他接觸,我也鼓舞我們專業人員要跟他保持接觸,因為他畢竟是付出很大的心力,也很專業。我想帶領這個專業團隊,專業團隊一路走來一定有很多"},{"start":198.353,"end":199.354,"text":"謝謝部長我的結論很簡單潛艦國造這麼重要的事情"},{"start":225.114,"end":249.331,"text":"我覺得感覺在連專案召集人都可以這麼草率的然後發個聲明然後身心俱疲就離開了你叫國人怎麼樣嚴肅看待這麼重要的一個國防的一個案子呢所以我真的也是呼籲我們的民進黨政府不要對連最基本人士都輕忽那我想請教下一個就是說"},{"start":250.558,"end":268.355,"text":"那麼可以從媒體資訊看到國造潛艦專業小組要解編啦那總統府跟國安會要設立先進國防事務辦公室然後推動潛艦後續的打造也要推動新一代的武器建構那"},{"start":270.433,"end":291.538,"text":"先進國防事務辦公室對於潛艦國造的一個國造潛艦工作有一說就是潛艦主導權要回歸國防部及海軍司令部那後續工作會由誰來完成啊我跟委員報告我這個先進國防事務辦公室早上媒體有問我我還真的沒聽到過"},{"start":292.591,"end":321.136,"text":"我到目前我都還沒有聽到過所以我也不知道怎麼樣先進國防事務辦公室但我我我敢說講說將來不管這個工作比如誰接手不接手問題專案小組是存在的他們有很多不管節點的管控或者工作推動他們會持續做的所以哪會主導在國防部嘛這國防部要負全責嘛國防部把這個責任交給海軍因為海軍的專業嘛而且將來他們的戰力要用的嘛"},{"start":326.818,"end":347.348,"text":"我也是覺得 認同剛剛部長講的我覺得基本上 潛艦國造不是在玩文字遊戲你講一個好像很炫很酷的名字叫先進國防事務辦公室根本本質潛艦國造專案小組如果是運作上他就有他過去運作的機制的話"},{"start":348.387,"end":349.027,"text":"第三個我就要問一下我們的部長"},{"start":369.346,"end":390.615,"text":"因為蔡總統在進行國政交接他有去帶賴清德總統當選看潛艦國造海昆號的進度那這之前新聞也顯出賴清德聽完簡報當場表示後續7艘潛艦不必分批建造要一次完成我想請教一下部長實務上做得到嗎"},{"start":394.6,"end":409.248,"text":"一次完成所以一次就是一樣要一艘或兩艘一起來嘛不講一家伙七艘通通進度一模一樣這是一個解讀的問題我們沒有講說能不能完成"},{"start":410.228,"end":413.612,"text":"其實剛剛部長回答裡面就不是一次完成"},{"start":428.697,"end":451.699,"text":"我就覺得作為一個未來的總統講話其實說真的講話語意要清楚不要引起誤解你講一次造7艘先不講這天價的預算更重要是請問生產線、廠辦還有所有的人力專業的支撐都是問題吧部長"},{"start":453.444,"end":460.939,"text":"我們有這麼大的量能一次造七艘嗎?像你剛剛講其實所謂一次造七艘還是得分批造啦是不是這個意思?"},{"start":461.516,"end":463.198,"text":"所以我跟部長說就是說你一次開7條生產線人員積聚物料"},{"start":486.616,"end":489.077,"text":"我跟部長說我當過總統府副秘書長兩岸國防外交也是我們當時在總統府的核心幕僚的工作之一"},{"start":507.911,"end":526.738,"text":"這麼重大的事情真的不能夠所謂的當兒戲一樣親口就隨便說出來如果說在以前總統要談這麼重大的潛艦國造問題的話他一定會找部長的嘛不是嗎他一定會找今天專業的國防的相關專業的單位來去商量過之後"},{"start":527.478,"end":547.923,"text":"然後才會去說出今天到底我們《潛艦國造》未來的一個方向不是今天榮興大院一句盛財戴清德盛財然後我們就整個《潛艦國造》的一個原來走的既定進程就要被帶著走這不是一個專業的事情最後我跟各位說我覺得民進黨政府在《潛艦國造》的事情最近的發展就三個兒戲"},{"start":549.663,"end":569.711,"text":"黃素光說走就走就是一個噁心嘛然後專案辦公室又搞出一個什麼先進國防辦公室第二個噁心第三個噁心就是你既有進程能夠把它完成我們就按部就班走這是一個穩健的國防政策阿賴清德就很噁心的講聖才出來說一次要蓋7艘阿"},{"start":571.087,"end":571.107,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}