{"error":false,"id":["151331"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151331,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151331","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,19],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","經濟委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T11:17:29+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T11:26:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627ded5c4cbc6a1a3438f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c949d0dce7f622c2f575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:17:29 - 11:26:37","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請林業署副署長。"],["主席：我們請林業署副署長。"],["邱委員志偉：還有原民會鍾副主委。"],["主席：請原民會鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：我想副主委跟副署長都瞭解，臺灣森林面積高達220萬公頃，大概占了國土面積的六成，對不對？我們從1991年開始對天然林全面禁伐，對不對？天然林占森林面積大概是七成，人工林大概占兩成，最後一成大概有10%是竹林，竹林的話大概有20萬公頃左右，請教副主委，我們禁伐補償的立法宗旨是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：為了國土保安、水土保持，當然也是因為土地受到限制，按照原基法第二十一條來做訂定跟補償的一個相關規定。"],["邱委員志偉：所以也是對原住民的生計所受的限制做補償？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那你的補償金額合理嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前補償的金額到去年有22億多。"],["邱委員志偉：補償是每公頃多少錢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：每公頃3萬。"],["邱委員志偉：你覺得這樣夠不夠？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然以目前來講……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有調高的必要？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：很多意見是希望能夠調整。"],["邱委員志偉：那你的意見呢？原民會的意見呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：本會認為，如果要調漲，因為涉及到整體預算的籌編。"],["邱委員志偉：目前每年大概編多少預算？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前會裡面，大概一年、整個部分是22億。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得你做這樣的補償，當然有依據補償相關的規定，在金額上你應該要逐年做動態的檢討跟調整，這部分請你們做參考。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果地主因為害怕違反禁伐的限制，沒有針對這些瀕老的竹林進行疏伐的撫育，這個會不會違反當初保育的立法原意？副署長，這個你瞭解嗎？我是問副署長，要讓你表現一下啊！"],["林副署長澔貞：當然，如果竹林都沒有去做一些經營整理的話，整體的竹林就會敗壞。"],["邱委員志偉：誰去檢討、誰去勘驗、誰去瞭解他是不是有符合進行相關的疏伐撫育，誰去驗證？"],["林副署長澔貞：這個部分大概就是各相關主管機關。"],["邱委員志偉：主管機關不是你們嗎？"],["林副署長澔貞：對，當然在原住民保留地的部分，是由縣市政府在做一些……"],["邱委員志偉：中央主管機關是你們啊！你們要去瞭解他是否有符合請領補償金的資格、他有沒有達這個保育的立法原意。"],["林副署長澔貞：基本上補償金的部分，是由鄉公所去做一些現場的認定，如果有什麼疑問的話，我們再做協助。"],["邱委員志偉：竹木覆蓋率的認定是誰在認定？"],["林副署長澔貞：基本上是基層鄉公所的同仁。"],["邱委員志偉：這個認定是各機關要充分去協調，你中央要有一個原則，然後各機關去做相關原則的一些討論，而這個覆蓋率認定的標準到底是怎麼樣？"],["林副署長澔貞：這個部分我們也可以運用航拍的部分去做一些判斷。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼談到覆蓋率？覆蓋率是牽涉到有沒有達到請領的標準，對不對？"],["林副署長澔貞：是，百分之七十以上。"],["邱委員志偉：那林相是否符合這個規定的標準？"],["林副署長澔貞：因為一般來說，大概一開始就是看看他是種什麼樣的樹種，大概就是不一樣……"],["邱委員志偉：你要趕快把這個標準……"],["林副署長澔貞：因為我們有一個造林樹種的規格在那邊。"],["邱委員志偉：你要把一個標準訂定出來，然後加以宣導，地主才會有相關的意願，他會去評估是否有意願，對不對？所以你統一標準訂定出來，然後加強宣導。"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["邱委員志偉：林業署應該要做多一點的宣導，做多一點努力，這是主管機關你要去協調各機關、各部會的啊！"],["林副署長澔貞：原民會有一個禁伐補償的實施辦法，實施辦法裡面其實有一些規範。"],["邱委員志偉：副主委，請補充一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，我們是有一些規範，我們在今年的1月8號針對原住民保留地禁伐補償實施辦法裡面有一些規範，要覆蓋率有七成才可以補償……"],["邱委員志偉：那誰去驗證？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：鄉公所還有縣府。"],["邱委員志偉：鄉公所有能力去驗證嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，這個部分我們都有相關的工作人員，而且既有的建物、道路跟農路要先扣除掉。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝兩位。接著請環境部氣候變遷署。"],["主席：我們有請蘇組長。"],["邱委員志偉：蘇組長，我時間很短。"],["蘇組長意筠：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：有關於臺灣的碳費制度存在幾個問題，我覺得環境部有這個責任去做釐清，或者是提出解決的方案，我就直接跳到這個問題，你知道李堅明教授嗎？"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：他說制度上有幾個問題的存在，你們應該去瞭解，關於碳費的用途跟需求導向，以至於碳費沒有辦法獲取共識，你對這點有沒有什麼看法？"],["蘇組長意筠：按照原本氣候法在立法跟我們在施行上的話，我們的碳費其實不是以財政當作一個主要的目的，而是一個機制，希望push企業能夠因為這樣的機制而去減量。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你應該是用需求導向，對不對？"],["蘇組長意筠：應該是說，按照氣候法精神，是以國家達到2050為目標才是我們的導向。"],["邱委員志偉：你這個目標我很清楚，2025開徵，費率要出來，徵收標準也要出來，但目前還沒定案，對不對？"],["蘇組長意筠：現在在審議中。"],["邱委員志偉：你可以如期開徵嗎？"],["蘇組長意筠：我們目前……"],["邱委員志偉：費率什麼時候會出來？"],["蘇組長意筠：部裡面目前朝這個目標來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：費率什麼時候會出來？"],["蘇組長意筠：因為我們現在費率……"],["邱委員志偉：2025是明年了！"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那你的徵收標準呢？"],["蘇組長意筠：跟委員報告，目前費率的部分，我們有透過審議會在審議中，所以這個部分都還在進行。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，李堅明教授有提到碳費間接排放的電力係數不是企業可控的，這個部分會造成費基的不公，這個你們去檢討一下，他提出了問題，你們行政機關要去解決問題，提出解決問題的方案。第三點，起徵的門檻也沒有依照產業的特性做一個差異化，這會導致碳洩漏，你有沒有注意到這個問題？"],["蘇組長意筠：跟委員報告，針對起徵門檻的部分，我們在過去這段時間已經跟企業以及經濟部有開了很多的密集會議，我們有在做這個部分的討論，所以各界的意見，我們會把它納入做後續訂定的參考。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你們有注意到這個問題了？"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：李堅明教授的意見，你們要作為你們很重要的參考。"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外碳權交易抵減的機制也不夠，這個部分有沒有什麼強化的規劃？"],["蘇組長意筠：目前碳權分成兩個部分，在自願減量的辦法跟後續的交易辦法，我們都已經陸續立法或是已經在執行，希望能夠擴充這部分的量能……"],["邱委員志偉：李堅明教授這四大問題就是從制度面去檢視，所以我希望你們一個月之內針對臺灣碳費制度所存在的四大問題，你提出改善規劃的書面報告，可以嗎？"],["蘇組長意筠：可以。"],["邱委員志偉：一個月？"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我要遵守質詢時間，時間到，我就要結束，不能占用下一位質詢時間。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢、謝謝組長，謝謝。","繼續我們請張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員改書面報告。","我們請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員改書面報告。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","邱議瑩、邱議瑩、邱議瑩委員不在。","請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra"},{"start":290.725,"end":297.951,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":316.05,"end":334.882,"text":"有,我們是有一些規範,我們在今年的1月8號針對原住民保留地禁法補償實施的辦法裡面,有一些規範,所以要覆蓋率七成才可以補償。那誰去驗證?相公所?相公所,對,是。還有縣府。"},{"start":336.804,"end":354.237,"text":"相公署有能力去驗證嗎?有,這個部分我們都有相關的工作人員,而且對於既有的建屋道路跟農路要先扣除掉。好,謝謝兩位。主席是不是請環境部氣候邊緣署?我們有請這個蘇組長。這個蘇組長,我時間很長,你也...委員好。"},{"start":364.167,"end":389.297,"text":"有關於台灣碳費制度存在的幾個問題,我覺得衛福部有責任去做釐清或提出解決的方案。」李教授大家都知道,李建民教授你知道嗎?是他說制度上有幾個問題的存在,你們應該去了解這個碳費用途非需求導向"},{"start":391.59,"end":413.275,"text":"所以以至於碳費沒有辦法獲取共識?你對這一點有沒有看法?按照原本氣候法在立法跟我們在執行上的話其實我們碳費其實不是以這個財政當作一個主要的目的而是一個機制希望能夠讓PUSH企業能夠因為這樣的機制而去減量所以你應該用需求導向嘛對不對?"},{"start":414.906,"end":432.682,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅"},{"start":442.132,"end":458.939,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":467.677,"end":493.747,"text":"第三點,啟徵門檻有沒有依照產業的特性做一個差異化,這個會導致這個碳洩漏,你有沒有注意到這個問題?跟委員報告,針對這個啟徵門檻的部分,那目前我們在過去段時間已經跟企業還有跟經濟部整個有開很多密集的會議,我們有在做這個部分的一個討論,所以這個各界意見我們會把它納入做後續定點的一個參考。你有沒有注意到這個問題?是。"},{"start":495.049,"end":506.752,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":523.535,"end":526.296,"text":"條例第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}