{"error":false,"id":["151333"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151333,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151333","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,19],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","經濟委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T11:34:47+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T11:43:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d5cf8d720efdbba98f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:34:47 - 11:43:19","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時34分）謝謝。主席有請今天參與的各部會，可以嗎？"],["主席：你要全部請，是不是？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["主席：好，請原民會的鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["主席：國家公園署綜合計劃組組長、國土管理署都市計畫組組長、農業部的林業及自然保育署，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["主席：法務部的法務司。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["主席：經濟部水利署的保育事業組、環境部氣候變遷署的組長、主計總處的專門委員，以上各部會被宣讀到的名字請上台，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席，各部會官員大家好。其實每一次談到原住民族的土地，我們都覺得心情非常地沈重，我們看到以原住民保留地來講，長期以來我們看到的就是它限制處處，動輒超限利用開罰。我們的土地變得沒有價值，人家常常笑我們，原住民窮得只剩下土地，原住民只能在自己的土地當別人的雇工，但是我們很瞭解，政府對我們的期待就是，原住民要守護山林，為了國土保育、為了水源的涵養，但是有限制就應該要有補償，所以過去的立委長期一直在訴求，能不能夠針對我們這些被限制利用的土地，你禁止我砍伐、禁止我利用，可不可以給我們補償金？","很高興，終於在2016年原住民開始有了禁伐補償金，我在這邊也看到我們為了很多理由，必須提高……我等一下會說明，至少今天我看到各部會，有農業部、有環境部、法務部、內政部、原民會，你們的報告都寫「敬表支持」，我很高興。所以在這邊要特別跟大家談一下，其實我們爬梳過去的立法理由，我們有看到，那個時候大家對於每一年3萬的禁伐補償金是不滿意的。其實最早的版本91年是1公頃10萬喔！可是當年為什麼會有1年3萬的規定？","我們來看一下，當初有提，立法理由就是說，如果需要提高禁伐補償金，可以等碳稅。既然講到碳稅，我們以目前國際碳權的交易市場來看，我們大概有去算，我也在農業部那邊質詢過，1公頃大概是8萬塊。當年也有提到為什麼1年會3萬塊？是因為最後大家用林務局的獎輔造林20年60萬這樣的基準去做的，所以大家就說，好吧！那就1公頃1年3萬塊。","可是我們來看一下，現在、今年、即將要公布施行的新的獎輔造林是來到6年最高60萬，為什麼？就是配合新植林啊！我們的氣遷法通過之後，因為新植林才會有價值啊！所以換算起來是1年10萬塊喔！","再看一下水利署，其實水利署也有針對水質水量保護區，也有做禁止砍伐的獎勵，我們看到的是1年1公頃6萬元。種種我們看到的這些都告訴我們，是時候該調整禁伐補償金了，所以我也在去年特別在院會質詢陳建仁行政院長，他很明快地講，請原民會研議提高草擬辦法過來。我今年再度在院會質詢行政院長跟主計長，主計長的裁示也很明快，他說只要大家都認同，他願意編列預算支持、支應，所以今天我們來這個地方，大家朝野都有提案版本出來，我們的訴求其實就非常地明確，我們都有提版本。","以我的版本來看，我就是覺得碳費、碳權的交易已經啟動了，獎輔造林的金額提高了，水質水量保護區的獎勵標準也都跟我們相差一半，所以我在這個地方特別提禁伐補償條例修法的第六條，就是增加了第三款「中華民國一百十四年起，每年每公頃新臺幣六萬元」。當然，這個可以交給大家一起來討論。","另外也為了不要經常地去修法，所以我們也希望就把它寫在法條裡面，能夠定時地配合我們的消費物價指數做調整。我在這個地方其實就是要表達為什麼我們大家要一同地支持禁伐補償金應該要提高，希望我們各部會，等一下有時間我再來聽聽看，至少你們的書面報告都說「敬表支持」，所以這個部分就交給原民會去努力。","另外，就是我想要提到一個小問題，就是問原民會，落實禁伐精神我也講了好幾年，謝謝，今年我也看到已經修正公告上路了，就是你們第六條用負面表列，只要不要有定著的這些建築，只要不要有舖設水泥的這些道路，你們是用負面表列，只要不是，你們就不會再東扣西扣，因為這個民怨很深啦！你們也常常知道，天災一來，崩塌地一堆，那個要算誰的？所以我在這邊只是要確認一下，因為很多人關心。我們這種崩塌地是不是確定不會扣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這個就是剛剛委員提到的，那個既有的建物、道路、農路都扣除……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是問崩塌地。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：崩塌地的部分，還是要符合檢測，就是覆蓋率七成就可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那重點來了，我要確認，因為我一直要求、訴求，我們這些崩塌地的面積不能扣在分子，要扣在分母。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個有確認了，謝謝。","另外一個小提醒就是，因為我們的申請是到4月底，可是我們也知道獎輔造林要上路了，這個中間會有空窗期。因為以後滿6年，不用再返還之前的造林補償金，所以我要確認一下，因為它會轉禁伐補償，這個空窗期會讓它損失今年可以參與禁伐補償，所以我希望這個地方請農業部、環保署跟原民會一定要去注意這個問題，像是可以延長我們的申請期限，就是等待新的獎輔造林上路，這樣可以嗎，副主委？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們跟農業部再研議一下這個部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，在這邊謝謝各部會官員，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝各回應的官員，謝謝。","繼續我們請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 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Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條文修正草案案。"},{"start":41.857,"end":60.11,"text":"以上請各部會宣讀的名字請上台,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。各位部會官員大家好。其實每一次談到原住民族的土地,我們都覺得心情非常的沉重。"},{"start":61.311,"end":87.821,"text":"我們看到以原住民保留地來講長期以來我們看到的就是它的限制處處動輒超限利用開發我們呢變得土地沒有價值人家常常笑我們原住民啊窮的只剩下土地原住民啊只能在自己的土地當別人的故宮"},{"start":89.67,"end":115.06,"text":"但是我們很了解政府對我們的期待就是原住民要守護山林為了國土保育為了水源的涵養但是有限制就應該要有補償所以長期在過去的立委一直在訴求能不能夠針對我們這些被限制利用的土地"},{"start":116.26,"end":129.676,"text":"你禁止我砍伐禁止我利用可不可以給我們補償金很高興終於在2016年原住民開始有了禁伐補償金"},{"start":131.803,"end":141.35,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第3次聯席會議第4次聯席會議第5次聯席會議第6次聯席會議第7次聯席會議第8次聯席會議第8次聯席會議第9次聯席會議第10次聯席會議第11次聯席會議第12次聯席會議第12次聯席會議第13次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第15次聯席會議第16次聯席會議第17次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第"},{"start":158.007,"end":171.254,"text":"其實我們去爬梳過去的立法理由我們有看到那個時候大家對於每一年3萬的禁伐補償金是不滿意的喔其實最早的版本91年是一公頃10萬喔可是當年為什麼會有這樣的一年3萬我們來看一下當初有提"},{"start":181.041,"end":202.435,"text":"禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條"},{"start":210.788,"end":237.311,"text":"是因為最後大家用林務局的蔣府造林20年60萬這樣的基準去所以大家就說好吧那就一公頃一年3萬塊可是我們來看一下現在今年即將要公佈施行的新的蔣府造林是來到6年最高60萬"},{"start":239.117,"end":264.794,"text":"為什麼就配合新殖林啊我們的7000法通過之後啊因為新殖林才會有價值啊好那所以換算起來是一年10萬塊喔所以再看一下水利署其實水利署他也有針對他的水質水量保護區也有去做這樣禁止砍伐的獎勵我們看到是一年一公頃6萬元"},{"start":267.302,"end":273.588,"text":"總總我們看到的這些都告訴我們是該調整禁伐補償金是時候了"},{"start":274.594,"end":302.655,"text":"所以我也在去年特別在院會質詢陳建仁行政院長他很明快的講請原民會嚴議提高的一個草擬辦法過來我今年呢我再度在院會質詢行政院長跟主計長主計長的才事也很明快他說只要大家都認同他願意編列預算會來支持、支應"},{"start":304.437,"end":328.782,"text":"所以今天我們來這個地方我們大家草野我們都有提案版本出來那我們的訴求其實就非常的明確我們都有提版本那以我版本來看我就是覺得碳費、碳權的交易已經啟動了蔣府造林的金額提高了水質水量保護區的獎勵標準也跟我們相差一半"},{"start":329.642,"end":345.561,"text":"所以我在這個地方特別提禁法補償條例修法的第六條就是增加了一個第三款中華民國114年起每年每公頃新台幣6萬元當然這個可以交給大家一起來討論"},{"start":347.043,"end":361.81,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":363.931,"end":375.376,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。九"},{"start":394.483,"end":421.2,"text":"落實禁伐精神我也講了好幾年謝謝今年我也看到已經修正公告上路了就是你們第六條用負面表列只要不要有定著的這一些建築那只要不要鋪設水泥的這些道路你們是用負面表列只要不是你們就不會再東扣西扣因為這個民怨很深啊你們也常常知道天災一來崩塌地一堆"},{"start":422,"end":431.166,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":446.707,"end":470.174,"text":"我要確認,因為我一直要求訴求,我們這些崩塌地的面積不能扣在分子,要扣在分母,這個確認了。好,那謝謝。那另外一個小提醒就是,因為我們的申請是到4月底,可是我們也知道蔣府照齡要上路了。"},{"start":471.104,"end":482.329,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正"},{"start":500.896,"end":504.641,"text":"地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}